Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
You're getting stuck against the internal/external explanation problem.  

Being able to explain the biochemistry, social frequency, and likely outcome of a behavior is nice and good and interesting, but it's also true that it says nothing about the actual experience of the feeling that the subject is having.

The two are different.

Biochemical and neurophysical studies are interesting in they are giving us a better sense of what exactly is going on in the brain when things are happening.  These hormones are surging, these triggers are doing something, this part of the brain has extra activity.  That's all fine and dandy, but it's a hell of a long ways from describing biophysical activity at that level of vagueness to providing a physical reduction of consciousness.  

I think one could describe it as something like the difference between using English to describe what a computer is doing as a program runs, and having the source code and the programming manual.  "It's using RAM to cache the data read off the hard drive" is a heck of a lot different than the binary code that causes those processes.

Until we have that level of understanding of the body, we won't really know whether experienced consciousness can be fully and completely reduced to the physical workings of the brain.

And even if it is, it may require an entirely different approach to directly and externally explore the nature of the subjective feelings and experiences that the conscious state, whatever that may be, is feeling and experiencing.  That is, we may know the code, but it might not help in understanding how the program feels while it's running the code.

Or not.  I don't know, and I think that's the point.  Right now, it's an intractable logical issue that may or may not be amenable to further scientific research, depending on how the facts of the matter match up with the logical problem.

by Zwackus on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 10:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Zwackus:
And even if it is, it may require an entirely different approach to directly and externally explore the nature of the subjective feelings and experiences that the conscious state, whatever that may be, is feeling and experiencing

great comment, zwackus, sums it up nicely.

any ideas what that new approach might be or entail? (enhead?)

will it come down from the experts, do you think?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 11:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have absolutely no idea.

Unless a serious breakthrough in applied meditation is on the horizon, I don't necessarily see any of our current subjective and inner-driven methods of providing anything different from what they have over the past several thousand years - a variety of vague senses about a variety of things that can't really be explained in any sense of detail while remaining comprehensible.  The sort of experiences coming from this may well be profound, meaningful, and wonderful in all kinds of ways, but from the perspective of building a shared and knowable understanding of human consciousness and the subjective experience of human reality they are not very useful, because they seem so incredibly personal and so resistant to logic, evidence, or even description.

On the scientific front, we'll know when we get there, I suppose.  If we ever do.  

by Zwackus on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 05:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Zwackus:
The sort of experiences coming from this may well be profound, meaningful, and wonderful in all kinds of ways, but from the perspective of building a shared and knowable understanding of human consciousness and the subjective experience of human reality they are not very useful,

oh but they are...

it's just under the radar, unmapped frequencies.

language is the map, and these experiences are off the edge, non/languageable. no one art form encapsulates enough vocabulary to fully describe ineffable noumena as yet, but folks are working hard on that.

meta is north of where the overton window is on this right now.

we talk here a fair bit about the overton window sliding left or right, while ignoring too often the possibilities of its movement in the vertical plane.

didn't einstein say problems can't be solved at the level they're on?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 08:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if someone manages to actually figure out how to talk about/portray/describe in any medium these sort of things, then we'll be in a completely different situation from where we are now.  It'd be nice, but I can't say I'm terribly optimistic.
by Zwackus on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 05:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have writing and language, which are good for abstract ideas. Language can do poetry and narrative, but it's abstracted, almost by definition. Even when it's associative, it only works because the hearer is relying on their memory of experience - not on the artist or poet's experience.

What we don't have, and have never had, is a 'language of experience' which shares experience directly, without having to rely on invocation, memory or association.

There isn't even a word for the concept, which is why it's hard to explain. But if you imagine being able to share, interpret, and store for posterity all of the details of a lifetime, without having to experience them in real time - that would be close to what I mean.

Once you have that as a beginning - something equivalent to writing, but capable of sharing direct experience - you could then evolve a corresponding language, which wouldn't be verbal or conceptual, but could still be used for summarising, changing, and becoming more intelligent about human experiences.

Art hints at this, sometimes, a little, but it's a pale shadow of what would be possible if something like this could be invented with technology, or made to work in some other way.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 09:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What we don't have, and have never had, is a 'language of experience' which shares experience directly

And will never have as

, without having to rely on invocation, memory or association.

the brain don't work.  

You can't even get from level one to level two in the visual cortex without association.  That's what the two levels do.  See: here for cite [Emphasis added]:

They found that some neurons fired rapidly when presented with lines at one angle, while others responded best to another angle. Some of these neurons responded differently to light patterns than to dark patterns. Hubel and Wiesel called these neurons "simple cells."  Still other neurons, which they termed "complex cells," had identical responses to light and dark patterns. These studies showed how the visual system constructs complex representations of visual information from simple stimulus features.

Motion happens "out there" but we perceive it "in here" and then go on to do other stuff based on that perception as determined by memory, association, instinct (sic), and so on, blah blah.

To underscore my point, there's some nasty genetically carried neurological diseases where the brain doesn't properly associate neural signals to 'doing stuff.'  Most of the time these people die very quickly as it's hard to keep living if the heart doesn't pump regularly or you "forget" to breathe.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 09:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um - no.

If experience is purely physical and mechanical - or biochemical - then it's possible, in principle, to reproduce it.

There could, potentially, be some equivalent of Heisenberg for thoughts and experiences which limits their copy-ability. But since there's no evidence for such a thing, there's no reason not to believe that reproducibility is a technological problem, not a philosophical.

The fact that the technology might need to be far ahead of what's available today, and might need to tweak and model individual neurons, doesn't change this. It's an inherent feature of a scientific view of experience.

Of course, if experience and consciousness turn out to be something more than neurons, then that's a very different game.

But if you accept the current scientific view, then you have to accept the possibility that technology can reproduce, simulate, and abstract whatever is happening.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 at 02:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes - up to the point of consciousness, which, being subjective, can be perhaps modeled, but not experienced. If, as I contend, self-awareness/consciousness is an outcome only of complexity (multiple simultaneous 'terminations'), then in theory the system that exactly modeled the CNS/Brain interactions and history could itself experience self-awareness, if it was complex enough - but the experience itself would not be observable, only the effects of that experience.

Which is where we are now ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 at 02:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Art hints at this, sometimes, a little, but it's a pale shadow of what would be possible if something like this could be invented with technology, or made to work in some other way.

i agree with you fully on this one. art is at the flintstone stage, and yet is the  only language set that seeks consciously to expand and express simultaneously, to root in familiar and branch into the abstract, to leaf, flower and fruit in ways that may be novel, even though their elements remain pretty constant.

a few well blended primary colours and you can have van gogh. five pentatonic notes can move millions into gear.

what makes a beethoven, a one in a million fluke of gene combos, what are the last elements to digitise, the most resistant to cloning, what are the details that distinguish us from each other and the worlds around us? a computer cannot respond to us with true animus, there's no homunculus inside that be truly original, it can just rejumble man's old offerings in rejigged ways. that's why most electronic music is so dull, it doesn't matter if that snare drum was recorded with the best mikes on the finest instrument in the finest room, or if it's been quantised to be more 'humanised', or it's programmed by a sengalese shaman, it will never ask you to take a leap deep into the present such as is offered by (an)other musician(s) in an improvisational combo when he, she or they is/are (jeez what language is this) inspired in the realtime moment, and on whose artistic response you can build conversation, set your sails.

as tech tries ever harder to make a facsimile of verisimilitude, it throws up such fascinating stuff, it's like it wants to mate with us sometimes. other times suck our brains out our eyes and ears while probing for our souls.

do we want to mate with it? or just mess around a little once in a while?

if you try and play a snare drum exactly the same way twice, you quickly realise how hard it is, the instrument is so subtle in its response to a wide variety of attack, vector, and intention.

computer drum tracks are like artificial flowers, they can be works of art, but they'll never perfume your room, and their depth of field is smoke and mirrors compared to the real they are so cleverly faking.

but there's a huge market for rubber women men actually have sex with, so there's no telling how strange can human desire be?

then maybe we'll fully grok how expensive it is to be real, and how it needn't and shouldn't be...

but miking and producing real drums...that's a work that may seem like buggy whip making, i know, i know...

;)  

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 at 12:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have writing and language, which are good for abstract ideas

When is an idea not abstract? When it is tangible perhaps?

What we don't have, and have never had, is a 'language of experience' which shares experience directly

I know of such a "language" --abstract of experience, sign of experience. It is psychology, lexicon of association and assimilation. Set aside my and your understandings of and competencies in manipulating this language --its many dialects inclusive-- though.

There isn't even a word for the concept, which is why it's hard to explain. But if you imagine being able to share, interpret, and store for posterity all of the details of a lifetime, without having to experience them in real time - that would be close to what I mean.

Oh, but this concept has been done. VR-clips, Strange Days (1995), a provocative and entertaining film: Lenny's addiction, as well as the recreational utility of "direct experience" sought by others, raises questions you may be interested in exploring. For example, the extinction of language.  

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Oct 29th, 2009 at 11:14:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series