The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
Unless a serious breakthrough in applied meditation is on the horizon, I don't necessarily see any of our current subjective and inner-driven methods of providing anything different from what they have over the past several thousand years - a variety of vague senses about a variety of things that can't really be explained in any sense of detail while remaining comprehensible. The sort of experiences coming from this may well be profound, meaningful, and wonderful in all kinds of ways, but from the perspective of building a shared and knowable understanding of human consciousness and the subjective experience of human reality they are not very useful, because they seem so incredibly personal and so resistant to logic, evidence, or even description.
On the scientific front, we'll know when we get there, I suppose. If we ever do.
The sort of experiences coming from this may well be profound, meaningful, and wonderful in all kinds of ways, but from the perspective of building a shared and knowable understanding of human consciousness and the subjective experience of human reality they are not very useful,
oh but they are...
it's just under the radar, unmapped frequencies.
language is the map, and these experiences are off the edge, non/languageable. no one art form encapsulates enough vocabulary to fully describe ineffable noumena as yet, but folks are working hard on that.
meta is north of where the overton window is on this right now.
we talk here a fair bit about the overton window sliding left or right, while ignoring too often the possibilities of its movement in the vertical plane.
didn't einstein say problems can't be solved at the level they're on? 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
What we don't have, and have never had, is a 'language of experience' which shares experience directly, without having to rely on invocation, memory or association.
There isn't even a word for the concept, which is why it's hard to explain. But if you imagine being able to share, interpret, and store for posterity all of the details of a lifetime, without having to experience them in real time - that would be close to what I mean.
Once you have that as a beginning - something equivalent to writing, but capable of sharing direct experience - you could then evolve a corresponding language, which wouldn't be verbal or conceptual, but could still be used for summarising, changing, and becoming more intelligent about human experiences.
Art hints at this, sometimes, a little, but it's a pale shadow of what would be possible if something like this could be invented with technology, or made to work in some other way.
What we don't have, and have never had, is a 'language of experience' which shares experience directly
And will never have as
, without having to rely on invocation, memory or association.
the brain don't work.
You can't even get from level one to level two in the visual cortex without association. That's what the two levels do. See: here for cite [Emphasis added]:
They found that some neurons fired rapidly when presented with lines at one angle, while others responded best to another angle. Some of these neurons responded differently to light patterns than to dark patterns. Hubel and Wiesel called these neurons "simple cells." Still other neurons, which they termed "complex cells," had identical responses to light and dark patterns. These studies showed how the visual system constructs complex representations of visual information from simple stimulus features.
Motion happens "out there" but we perceive it "in here" and then go on to do other stuff based on that perception as determined by memory, association, instinct (sic), and so on, blah blah.
To underscore my point, there's some nasty genetically carried neurological diseases where the brain doesn't properly associate neural signals to 'doing stuff.' Most of the time these people die very quickly as it's hard to keep living if the heart doesn't pump regularly or you "forget" to breathe. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
If experience is purely physical and mechanical - or biochemical - then it's possible, in principle, to reproduce it.
There could, potentially, be some equivalent of Heisenberg for thoughts and experiences which limits their copy-ability. But since there's no evidence for such a thing, there's no reason not to believe that reproducibility is a technological problem, not a philosophical.
The fact that the technology might need to be far ahead of what's available today, and might need to tweak and model individual neurons, doesn't change this. It's an inherent feature of a scientific view of experience.
Of course, if experience and consciousness turn out to be something more than neurons, then that's a very different game.
But if you accept the current scientific view, then you have to accept the possibility that technology can reproduce, simulate, and abstract whatever is happening.
Which is where we are now ;-) You can't be me, I'm taken
i agree with you fully on this one. art is at the flintstone stage, and yet is the only language set that seeks consciously to expand and express simultaneously, to root in familiar and branch into the abstract, to leaf, flower and fruit in ways that may be novel, even though their elements remain pretty constant.
a few well blended primary colours and you can have van gogh. five pentatonic notes can move millions into gear.
what makes a beethoven, a one in a million fluke of gene combos, what are the last elements to digitise, the most resistant to cloning, what are the details that distinguish us from each other and the worlds around us? a computer cannot respond to us with true animus, there's no homunculus inside that be truly original, it can just rejumble man's old offerings in rejigged ways. that's why most electronic music is so dull, it doesn't matter if that snare drum was recorded with the best mikes on the finest instrument in the finest room, or if it's been quantised to be more 'humanised', or it's programmed by a sengalese shaman, it will never ask you to take a leap deep into the present such as is offered by (an)other musician(s) in an improvisational combo when he, she or they is/are (jeez what language is this) inspired in the realtime moment, and on whose artistic response you can build conversation, set your sails.
as tech tries ever harder to make a facsimile of verisimilitude, it throws up such fascinating stuff, it's like it wants to mate with us sometimes. other times suck our brains out our eyes and ears while probing for our souls.
do we want to mate with it? or just mess around a little once in a while?
if you try and play a snare drum exactly the same way twice, you quickly realise how hard it is, the instrument is so subtle in its response to a wide variety of attack, vector, and intention.
computer drum tracks are like artificial flowers, they can be works of art, but they'll never perfume your room, and their depth of field is smoke and mirrors compared to the real they are so cleverly faking.
but there's a huge market for rubber women men actually have sex with, so there's no telling how strange can human desire be?
then maybe we'll fully grok how expensive it is to be real, and how it needn't and shouldn't be...
but miking and producing real drums...that's a work that may seem like buggy whip making, i know, i know...
;) 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
We have writing and language, which are good for abstract ideas
When is an idea not abstract? When it is tangible perhaps?
I know of such a "language" --abstract of experience, sign of experience. It is psychology, lexicon of association and assimilation. Set aside my and your understandings of and competencies in manipulating this language --its many dialects inclusive-- though.
Oh, but this concept has been done. VR-clips, Strange Days (1995), a provocative and entertaining film: Lenny's addiction, as well as the recreational utility of "direct experience" sought by others, raises questions you may be interested in exploring. For example, the extinction of language. Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 8 3 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 6 4 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 11 11 comments
by gmoke - Mar 7
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 2 1 comment
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 5 2 comments
by gmoke - Feb 25
by Oui - Mar 21
by Oui - Mar 191 comment
by Oui - Mar 19
by Oui - Mar 18
by Oui - Mar 175 comments
by Oui - Mar 16
by Oui - Mar 164 comments
by Oui - Mar 1510 comments
by Oui - Mar 155 comments
by Oui - Mar 147 comments
by Oui - Mar 1312 comments
by Oui - Mar 12
by Oui - Mar 1113 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 1111 comments
by Oui - Mar 1116 comments
by Oui - Mar 109 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Mar 104 comments
by Oui - Mar 94 comments
by Oui - Mar 82 comments