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The point of the Council of Nicaea was to create the best possible church for the churchmen.  The churchmen never forgot that particular desideratum.  "Blesed are the poor, for they will inherit poisoned dirt with an underwater mortgage.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 01:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pour chanter Veni Creator
Il faut avoir chasuble d'or
Pour chanter Veni Creator
Il faut avoir chasuble d'or
Nous en tissons pour vous, Grands de l'Eglise,
Et nous, pauvres canuts, n'avons pas de chemises !

Refrain
C'est nous les canuts,
Nous allons tout nus !

...

Mais notre règne arrivera
Quand votre règne finira.
Mais notre règne arrivera
Quand votre règne finira.
Nous tisserons le linceul du vieux monde,
Car on entend déjà la révolte qui gronde !

Refrain
C'est nous les canuts,
Nous n'irons plus nus !

La chanson des Canuts, Lyon, 1831.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 01:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fifteen hundred years of wealth and glory for the chruchmen and still for Les Canuts:

"We weave your vestments of gold, Church Grandees,
while we have no shirts ourselves!"

Christianity in action!  At its finest.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 03:37:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was the Lyon silkworkers' song during the first canuts revolt

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 04:18:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the Council of Nicaea was first and foremost a question of power. Its goal was to impose Constantine's caesaropapism through the unification of the christian church(es) under a centralised hierarchy and dogma. This by force and anathema, thanks to Eusebius of Caesarea. As far as I remember, the bishops from the East Mediterranean (mostly Arians) were delayed by a storm. When they arrived, the decision to excommunicate them had already been made...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 02:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Constantine's chief aim, from what I understand, was to get the chruchmen to agree on a common doctrine, but he was less concerned as to what it was.  If Christianity was to be one of the official religions of the Empire, he did not want a lot of doctrinal squabbling.  I believe that the story of his vision of a cross and conversion was apocryphal and a later invention once the church had become The Church.

The rejection of the Arian beliefs and the adoption Nicaean Creed were the primary "accomplishments" of the Council and were related, but Constantine's two immediate successors were Arians and various pagan factions continued for years to seek to increase their influence.  The process of establishing caesaropapism may be considered to have begun at this council, but it was far from complete.  Constantinople would not be founded for another five years and the Byzantine Empire dates from 395, by which time it is safe to say that caesaropapism was well established.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 03:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I rather enjoyed Julian, almost as much as Burr, although I can't speak to the accuracy of the facts, embalmed by the fiction.

I can't read Greek.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:20:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Julian the Apostate (scroll to the link, "Oration upon the Mother of the Gods")

MUST we then speak of this subject also: and shall we write concerning things that are not to be told, and shall we publish things not to be divulged, and secrets not to be spoken aloud? Who indeed is Attis or Gallos; who the Mother of the Gods; what is the reason of this rule of Chastity; moreover for what cause has such an institution been established among us from remote antiquity; handed down to us indeed from the most ancient of the Phrygians, but accepted in the first place by the Greeks ---- and those not the vulgar herd, but the Athenians ---- taught by the event that they had not done well in ridiculing him that was performing the rites of the Great Mother. For they are said to have insulted and driven off the Gallos, as one who was making innovations in religion: because they did not understand the character of the goddess, or how that she was the very "Deo," "Rhea," and "Demeter" so much honoured amongst them themselves....


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I resorted to synopsis instead of re-reading the relevant parts of Gibbon. Some other of my recollections are based on passages from books I may still have in my library, but the names of which will no longer come to mind and still others are from lectures more than 45 years ago.

I too am a sometime fan of Vidal.  He has a taste for the juicier historical subjects that most of those in his generation shunned. I always thought that Al Gore's relation to Gore Vidal plus his heritage from his father hinted that there might be depths to Al that were not on display.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 11:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"depths to Al" LOL. Have you read Inconvenient Truth? lordamercy, hand him his literary jeans.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 06:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Al's Nobel was not in literature.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Oct 11th, 2009 at 02:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We can say that again. Assualt on Reason. woosh.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Oct 11th, 2009 at 10:18:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw the movie. It wasn't bad.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Oct 11th, 2009 at 04:34:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
# Arius and his doctrine, Arianism,
    * Arian controversy, several controversies which divided the early Christian church

# Arians or Areians, ancient tribe, living in Aria (satrapy), now in western Afghanistan
    * Aryan, a term associated with the Proto-Indo-Iranians
    * Aryan race - the racist concept

doh.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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