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Migeru:
Within the institutional context of British politics, her life peerage is totally incidental to a political apparatchik's career. If someone has to be made a peer in order to be a minister because they're not an MP, they are made a peer.

Precisely my point.  In Britain it is possible to have an extensive ministerial career without ever standing for election - something which is less common in most other member states as far as I am aware  - and not necessarilly a great way to tackle the acknowledged "democratic deficit" within the EU.

My point is that because of long-standing tradition (some would call in class prejudice) it is not very unusual for senior political leaders never having to be electorally accountable in the UK.  As long as they're the right sort of British, that's all well and good old chap.

However the EU has nothing like the long tradition and legitimacy that appears to be bestowed on the British ruling class.  What legitimacy it has is largely bestowed on it through popular elections and the participation of popularly elected Governments.  

I'm sure if she ends up doing a very good job, none of this will be an issue.  But its not a good place to start from right after the difficulties we had in getting a popular endorsement of Lisbon against allegations that it was all an elite project and a conspiracy against ordinary people.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 09:58:36 AM EST
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Frank Schnittger:
In Britain it is possible to have an extensive ministerial career without ever standing for election - something which is less common in most other member states as far as I am aware
Um, take Pedro Solbes, Spain's minister for agriculture 1991-3, Economy minister 1993-6 and 2004-9, vice-president in 2004-9, and EU Commisioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs in 1999-2004. He only even joined the PSOE in 2008 and was a parlamentarian for exactly one year.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:04:48 AM EST
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So you are saying it is, and should be an elite project? That wasn't the Yes campaign line.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:08:53 AM EST
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I've had enough of your populist demagoguery in this thread.

You make a factual claim, I rebut you and you reply with this? I was not part of the yes campaign in Ireland.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:15:09 AM EST
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Migeru:
I've had enough of your populist demagoguery in this thread.

Ah so it is populist demagoguery to argue that the EU should be more than an elite project and I should stop arguing that popular mandates are an important though not the only form of democratic legitimacy.  Seeing this is the second time you have told me I am not welcome here I shall leave.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:23:25 AM EST
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I have replied with reasoned arguments and facts to the litany of talking point after talking point coming from you, some of which are not even your own opinions. So, yes, I find it frustrating to debate you. And no, I am not speaking for here but for myself so don't play victim either.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:26:30 AM EST
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You will never turn me into a victim, but I will not debate on exclusively your terms either. I find your almost exclusive emphasis on the rational and disdain for the popular, democratic, emotional, affective and imaginative elements of politics equally frustrating, but I hope I have never been discourteous in my replies.  If so I apologise.  Cheers!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:34:50 AM EST
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 "You have a history of pretending to articulate positions that are not yours without making it explicit that that's what you're doing. Could you stop?"

"I've had enough of your populist demagoguery in this thread."

I don't find these statements can be lumped together with other "reasoned arguments and fact."

Without going into the validity of anyone's arguments here,  i would be displeased if ET lost the quality Frank Schnittger brings to the table simply because you might dig too deeply for civilized discourse.

If you've indeed had enough of x or y, the proper response is leave it alone.

And i may discuss the anti-Brit thread elsewhere, but not here.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 11:53:04 AM EST
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Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Nov 20th, 2009 at 08:18:09 PM EST
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