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I was however, pretty pissed off that Zapatero suported Barroso's reappointment on the grounds that he's Iberian because I think he's about as bad as Blair, only less evil and with better teeth.
Then again
Because she has never been elected to anything
Given that diplomacy is not necessarily best conducted by elected officials, I fail to see why this is a huge problem.
was never a particularly senior or influential politician in the UK
Uh... in my view, that's a mark in her favor, when one thinks about recent senior and/or influential politicians in the UK.
The brief was for a nominally leftist women to balance male right wingers in all the other EU leadership positions.
Ah. So any woman named to this position would be a "token"?
No. Neelie Kroes (if you want a commissioner with a track record) Mary Robinson (if she could be persuaded) DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE (if you want someone with both a Commission and an electoral track record) Tarja Kaarina Halonen
All have more substantial track records. The only problem was they're not British. notes from no w here
Neelie Kroes I had to look up. It seems to me that has no real experience in diplomacy or foreign relations, other than her current position as Commissioner for Competition, in which her mandate is largely limited to business and commerce -- hardly the profile I'd want for this position, but I'm not European, so what do I know. As a side note, the Wiki entry says she's "a confidant of Ayaan Hirsi Ali," and persuaded her to join the VVD, which IMHO should be a huge mark against her.
(Just nitpicking: van Rompuy and Barroso did gave up their PM jobs. Though, for fairness, Barroso did so to flee a sinking ship...) *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Jerome a Paris:
I think you need to add (none / 1) the list for the High Representative as well. The two will be selected as a pair. Names mentioned CATHERINE ASHTON, 53, a member of Britain's Labour Party, she has been the EU's trade commissioner since 2008; MASSIMO D'ALEMA, 60, is a former Socialist Italian prime minister and foreign minister; BERNARD KOUCHNER, 70, France's foreign minister and the founder of the international aid agency Doctors Without Borders (Medecins Sans Frontieres) DAVID MILIBAND, 44, the Labour Party member is currently Britain's foreign minister; MIGUEL ANGEL MORATINOS, 58, is Spain's Socialist foreign minister with seven years prior experience as the EU's special representative for the Mideast peace process; URSULA PLASSNIK, 53, a Christian Democratic former Austrian foreign minister and ambassador to Switzerland; OLLI REHN, 47, a Finn, has been EU commissioner for enlargement for five years; ADRIAN SEVERIN, 55, member of the European Parliament, the Social Democrat is a former Romanian foreign minister. I'd also add Elisabeth Guigou
Names mentioned
CATHERINE ASHTON, 53, a member of Britain's Labour Party, she has been the EU's trade commissioner since 2008;
MASSIMO D'ALEMA, 60, is a former Socialist Italian prime minister and foreign minister;
BERNARD KOUCHNER, 70, France's foreign minister and the founder of the international aid agency Doctors Without Borders (Medecins Sans Frontieres)
DAVID MILIBAND, 44, the Labour Party member is currently Britain's foreign minister;
MIGUEL ANGEL MORATINOS, 58, is Spain's Socialist foreign minister with seven years prior experience as the EU's special representative for the Mideast peace process;
URSULA PLASSNIK, 53, a Christian Democratic former Austrian foreign minister and ambassador to Switzerland;
OLLI REHN, 47, a Finn, has been EU commissioner for enlargement for five years;
ADRIAN SEVERIN, 55, member of the European Parliament, the Social Democrat is a former Romanian foreign minister.
I'd also add Elisabeth Guigou
As it turns out, looking at the field I ended up predicting Ashton's appointment. And Jérôme predicted Juncker-Plassnik, presumably with a dose of gender balance influencing the choice? En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
It's useful to have the additional info given with this list: BACKGROUND: Who's who of possible candidates for EU posts - Monsters and CriticsJAN PETER BALKENENDE, 53, Christian Democratic prime minister of the Netherlands since 2002; TONY BLAIR, 56, former Labour Party prime minister of Britain; FELIPE GONZALEZ, 67, a Socialist former prime minister of Spain; DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE, 53, the party-unaffiliated president of Lithuania and a former EU budget commissioner; TARJA HALONEN, 65, the Social Democratic president of Finland since 2000; JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, 54, Luxembourg's Christian Democratic prime minister and head of the Eurogroup of European finance ministers; PAAVO LIPPONEN, 68, the Social Democrat is a former Finnish prime minister and current president of that country's parliament; MARY ROBINSON, 65, former Labour Party president of Ireland; WOLFGANG SCHUESSEL, 64, a former lawyer and Conservative Party chancellor of Austria from 2000 through 2007; HERMAN VAN ROMPUY, 62, current Christian Democratic prime minister of Belgium; GUY VERHOFSTADT, 56, a former Belgian prime minister who currently heads the Liberal bloc in the European Parliament; VAIRA VIKE-FREIBERGA, 71, an unaffiliated former president of Latvia. Candidates for High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (in alphabetical order): CATHERINE ASHTON, 53, a member of Britain's Labour Party, she has been the EU's trade commissioner since 2008; MASSIMO D'ALEMA, 60, is a former Socialist Italian prime minister and foreign minister; BERNARD KOUCHNER, 70, France's foreign minister and the founder of the international aid agency Doctors Without Borders (Medecins Sans Frontieres) DAVID MILIBAND, 44, the Labour Party member is currently Britain's foreign minister; MIGUEL ANGEL MORATINOS, 58, is Spain's Socialist foreign minister with seven years prior experience as the EU's special representative for the Mideast peace process; URSULA PLASSNIK, 53, a Christian Democratic former Austrian foreign minister and ambassador to Switzerland; OLLI REHN, 47, a Finn, has been EU commissioner for enlargement for five years; ADRIAN SEVERIN, 55, member of the European Parliament, the Social Democrat is a former Romanian foreign minister.
JAN PETER BALKENENDE, 53, Christian Democratic prime minister of the Netherlands since 2002; TONY BLAIR, 56, former Labour Party prime minister of Britain; FELIPE GONZALEZ, 67, a Socialist former prime minister of Spain; DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE, 53, the party-unaffiliated president of Lithuania and a former EU budget commissioner; TARJA HALONEN, 65, the Social Democratic president of Finland since 2000; JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, 54, Luxembourg's Christian Democratic prime minister and head of the Eurogroup of European finance ministers; PAAVO LIPPONEN, 68, the Social Democrat is a former Finnish prime minister and current president of that country's parliament; MARY ROBINSON, 65, former Labour Party president of Ireland; WOLFGANG SCHUESSEL, 64, a former lawyer and Conservative Party chancellor of Austria from 2000 through 2007; HERMAN VAN ROMPUY, 62, current Christian Democratic prime minister of Belgium; GUY VERHOFSTADT, 56, a former Belgian prime minister who currently heads the Liberal bloc in the European Parliament; VAIRA VIKE-FREIBERGA, 71, an unaffiliated former president of Latvia. Candidates for High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (in alphabetical order): CATHERINE ASHTON, 53, a member of Britain's Labour Party, she has been the EU's trade commissioner since 2008; MASSIMO D'ALEMA, 60, is a former Socialist Italian prime minister and foreign minister; BERNARD KOUCHNER, 70, France's foreign minister and the founder of the international aid agency Doctors Without Borders (Medecins Sans Frontieres) DAVID MILIBAND, 44, the Labour Party member is currently Britain's foreign minister; MIGUEL ANGEL MORATINOS, 58, is Spain's Socialist foreign minister with seven years prior experience as the EU's special representative for the Mideast peace process; URSULA PLASSNIK, 53, a Christian Democratic former Austrian foreign minister and ambassador to Switzerland; OLLI REHN, 47, a Finn, has been EU commissioner for enlargement for five years; ADRIAN SEVERIN, 55, member of the European Parliament, the Social Democrat is a former Romanian foreign minister.
JAN PETER BALKENENDE, 53, Christian Democratic prime minister of the Netherlands since 2002;
TONY BLAIR, 56, former Labour Party prime minister of Britain;
FELIPE GONZALEZ, 67, a Socialist former prime minister of Spain;
DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE, 53, the party-unaffiliated president of Lithuania and a former EU budget commissioner;
TARJA HALONEN, 65, the Social Democratic president of Finland since 2000;
JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER, 54, Luxembourg's Christian Democratic prime minister and head of the Eurogroup of European finance ministers;
PAAVO LIPPONEN, 68, the Social Democrat is a former Finnish prime minister and current president of that country's parliament;
MARY ROBINSON, 65, former Labour Party president of Ireland;
WOLFGANG SCHUESSEL, 64, a former lawyer and Conservative Party chancellor of Austria from 2000 through 2007;
HERMAN VAN ROMPUY, 62, current Christian Democratic prime minister of Belgium;
GUY VERHOFSTADT, 56, a former Belgian prime minister who currently heads the Liberal bloc in the European Parliament;
VAIRA VIKE-FREIBERGA, 71, an unaffiliated former president of Latvia.
Candidates for High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (in alphabetical order):
Ashton had Brown to propose her and Zapatero to second it, both Socialist and Brown her compatriot. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
In the current media-dominated, postmodern, electioneering brand of politics, elections are to a large extent popularity contests. Substance in public political debates is low. We discuss whether politicians are photogenic (I don't think Ashton is) or charismatic.
To borrow terminology from Bob Altemeyer, the proportion of authoritarian social manipulators among elected politicians is higher than in the general population. Sociopaths are not only drawn to power but they are more successful at emotionally manipulating crowds. In addition, to be selected by a political party to be a candidate tends to require taking part in the mutual backscratching of the patronage networks underlying political parties.
Thus, we get Blair. And Sarkozy. And Berlusconi.
The other day there was the following in the Salon
Bernard:
Tony Blair May Covet EU Presidency, But He's No Belgian Haiku Master - WSJ.comMr. Rompuy is the right man, Belgian political scientist Tobias Van Assche argued in a paper published last week by the University of Antwerp. After all, the 62-year-old Belgian scored low in a measure of "self-confidence" and "will to power."
Mr. Rompuy is the right man, Belgian political scientist Tobias Van Assche argued in a paper published last week by the University of Antwerp. After all, the 62-year-old Belgian scored low in a measure of "self-confidence" and "will to power."
If he got to Prime Minister nonetheless, it means that he probably has enough of both, and simply scored "relatively low" among the sociopathic manipulators he has for peers.
Let me give you another example: Jadranka Kosor of Croatia.
Croatia had a charismatic Prime Minister, Ivo Sanader. He got locked into a dispute with Slovenia's Borut Pahor which delayed Croatia's EU accession negotiations for over a year. Then he resigned abruptly and installed Kosor as his replacement. Apparently Kosor wasn't well respected in Croatia, even though she had even been a Presidential candidate, most people considered her to be an airhead. However, she happens to be one of those people who sit down and quietly do their job. One of the first things she did when she assumed office was to whip all the ministers into shape demanding a quick report from each of them. It appears they were shocked. She also has solved the diplomatic dispute with Slovenia in less than 6 months, though it is possible that the Croatian public or parliament won't like the deal she's struck. Her popularity seems to be suitably high at this point. But hey, at the time of her appointment people's perception of her was coloured by the current president's quip during the presidential election that pitted the two of them that all she was good for was coming out of a cake at a party. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
My concern is that we have just fought a very hard referendum campaign in Ireland where much of the NO argument was driven by British and Irish Eurosceptic arguments about "unelected elites" in Brussels taking over peoples lives and now we seem to be going almost out of our way to appoint someone who fits that description reasonably accurately.
Membership of the British House of Lords (and she is still a peer) does not sit well with most peoples idea of democratic accountability and all sides - even the yes campaign - conceded the EU had some way to go to make the EU institutions appear "closer to the people" and to encourage greater popular identification and emotional involvement with those institutions.
That argument always seemed particularly specious to me when it came from British Eurosceptics with their (frequent) attachments to the House of Lords, "distain for the masses", and attachment to direct democracy only when it came to demanding referenda on the EU.
But it is still an argument and a perception which gained a lot of traction in the campaign and appointing a Peer who has never submitted to a popular election doesn't help that perception. Politics is about popular engagement as well as administrative competence, and in my view Baroness Ashton has not conclusively demonstrated either. notes from no w here
Actually, an unelected second-reading chamber helps protect the State from the influence of money. Case in point: if the House of Lords votes down 42-day detention it will be in part because Brown can't threaten the Lords with a snap election where they'd lose their seats, or engage in horse-trading on individual constituency demands.So I am convinced that having two directly elected chambers is a waste but I am not convinced that an unelected second chamber is a bad idea. Spain's Senate definitely is useless as configured and I would much rather it be replaced with the Conference of Presidents.
So I am convinced that having two directly elected chambers is a waste but I am not convinced that an unelected second chamber is a bad idea. Spain's Senate definitely is useless as configured and I would much rather it be replaced with the Conference of Presidents.
The irony I am seeking to highlight (perhaps ad nauseam by now) is that British Eurosceptics never stop criticising the EU for a lack of direct democracy whilst being contemptuous of popular politics within the UK and being supportive of the Queen, The lords, and the constitutional privileges of the House of Commons. There is hardly a country in Europe with less direct democracy than the UK, and a highly flawed first past the post electoral system at that.
Appointing a Baroness to a top EU post is going to do nothing to challenges the faux "unelected Brussels elite" argument they so love to pedal. notes from no w here
Whatever about the UK - and they are as entitled to their internal traditions as anyone else - how is this relevant to the EU?
You are hardly advocating a second, unelected Chamber of the EU Parliament?
But, really, as I am forced to point out repeatedly, the German Federal Council (Bundesrat) is an unelected (that is, indirectly elected) second-reading chamber and nobody clamors for its removal, and it is very analogous to the European Council itself, where representatives of the Member States' governments act in codecision with the directly elected parliament in the EU's legislative process.
Appointing a Baroness to a top EU post is going to do nothing to challenges the faux "unelected Brussels elite" argument they so love to pedal
I thought the Lisbon Treaty and the new posts created under its terms was part of an attempt to encourage greater popular identification and involvement with EU institutions by EU citizens. notes from no w here
Baroness Ashton was only appointed to her various UK ministerial jobs on the basis of being an appointed member of the House of Lords.
Within the institutional context of British politics, her life peerage is totally incidental to a political apparatchik's career. If someone has to be made a peer in order to be a minister because they're not an MP, they are made a peer. It's pretty meaningless. Most non-hereditary peers know this and are not assholes about being a Baron(ess).
Sarah Ludford MEP is also a life peer and nobody questions that she works her arse off as a parlamentarian. Then again, she's in an elected position and in the Lib Dems you have to go through an open (to party members) primary in order to get the #1 slot on the party list. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
Within the institutional context of British politics, her life peerage is totally incidental to a political apparatchik's career. If someone has to be made a peer in order to be a minister because they're not an MP, they are made a peer.
Precisely my point. In Britain it is possible to have an extensive ministerial career without ever standing for election - something which is less common in most other member states as far as I am aware - and not necessarilly a great way to tackle the acknowledged "democratic deficit" within the EU.
My point is that because of long-standing tradition (some would call in class prejudice) it is not very unusual for senior political leaders never having to be electorally accountable in the UK. As long as they're the right sort of British, that's all well and good old chap.
However the EU has nothing like the long tradition and legitimacy that appears to be bestowed on the British ruling class. What legitimacy it has is largely bestowed on it through popular elections and the participation of popularly elected Governments.
I'm sure if she ends up doing a very good job, none of this will be an issue. But its not a good place to start from right after the difficulties we had in getting a popular endorsement of Lisbon against allegations that it was all an elite project and a conspiracy against ordinary people. notes from no w here
In Britain it is possible to have an extensive ministerial career without ever standing for election - something which is less common in most other member states as far as I am aware
You make a factual claim, I rebut you and you reply with this? I was not part of the yes campaign in Ireland. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
I've had enough of your populist demagoguery in this thread.
"I've had enough of your populist demagoguery in this thread."
I don't find these statements can be lumped together with other "reasoned arguments and fact."
Without going into the validity of anyone's arguments here, i would be displeased if ET lost the quality Frank Schnittger brings to the table simply because you might dig too deeply for civilized discourse.
If you've indeed had enough of x or y, the proper response is leave it alone.
And i may discuss the anti-Brit thread elsewhere, but not here. "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
Democracy has nothing to do with it - it's just a convenient stick they can use to beat the dog. If the electorate is dim enough to believe the sceptics have any interest in democratic accountability, more fool them.
Elected leaders are hardly models of excellence - Blair, Aznar, Burlesquoni, ad nauseam - so being elected isn't quite a benchmark of appropriateness.
What this debate underlines is the impossible criteria needed for leadership. If you're elected you're likely to be a spiv, a fool, and/or a sociopath, and if you're unelected you're undemocratic - which is even worse
I agree she's a fig leaf, but that doesn't mean she'll be insignificant. The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
In other words, another Angela Merkel.
A potentially powerful narrative.
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
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