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Why NATO is a thing of the Past | 128 comments (128 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 0)
BruceMcF:
There is no clear way that support for NATO is pro-European integration or pro better EU-Russian relations
Pro-European integration is easy: the Central-Eastern European nations have strongly anti-Russian and consequently Atlanticist currents. Poland and the Baltics are the prime examples because they share a border with Russia.

The issue of Ukraine's possible EU or NATO accession would be a good test bed for elucidating this question.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 06:16:27 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (4.00 / 2)
the Central-Eastern European nations have strongly anti-Russian and consequently Atlanticist currents. Poland and the Baltics are the prime examples because they share a border with Russia.

My understanding is that this isn't representative of the reality on the ground. The self proclaimed 'elites' of the political circles are anti-Russian (I wonder what the financial arrangements are) while Eastern European society at large is hardly anti Russian.

Statistics on this are welcome.

by vladimir on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 06:26:37 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 1)
That's what I read into Marek's
Or perhaps over time the EU will be able to take the place of NATO in the minds of the Poles and Baltics, along with the military structures that implies, though without the Russian shift taking place, that wouldn't really change anything from an EU-RUssia perspective, except perhaps for the worse.
(my emphasis)

Are you saying the Poles and Baltics whose minds we're talking about are the "self-proclaimed 'elites'"?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 06:40:47 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (4.00 / 2)
That's indeed what I'm saying : political elites and local media -  often owned by the same foreign (Anglo-Saxon, German) mainstream media which propagates pro-NATO values on the Western end of Europe.

The key to mind control is information control.

by vladimir on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 06:50:54 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 1)
Let's be clear, just like Frank describes how NATO membership is a non-starter in Irenland and Sven relates how there was a short-lived attempt in the last coupld of years to bring NATO membership into the mainstream in Finland, no "serious" political party in Western Europe advocates leaving NATO. For instance, in Spain that debate ended in 1986 and there's a "consensus" since. NATO membership is not an issue. I suppose the same is true in other countries.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 07:03:29 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (4.00 / 2)
In France, Nicolas SARKOZY - a known pro NATO advocate (and whose presidential campaign was - I suspect - financed in part by some US military-industrial organisation) wants to take the country back into the alliance without as much as a public debate.

The Socialists are opposed as is the center MODEM led by François BAYROU. Are these 'serious' political parties? BAYROU is calling on the government to organise a referendum on the issue. I would certainly support that. But if it's not on the agenda, it's because the French would vote NO. Vive la démocracie.

by vladimir on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 07:20:55 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 1)
France has been in NATO but "out of its military structure", whatever that meant.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 08:24:19 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 1)
It means the US doesn't own French nukes and boots - as it owns the UK's nukes and boots - but France and the rest of NATO still talk to each other.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 01:09:10 PM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 0)
What a reassuring concept for the UK.
by vladimir on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 01:12:24 PM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 1)
It's called an "'independent' nuclear deterrent".

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 01:13:14 PM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (4.00 / 2)
A small but interesting fact is that there are now about 50,000 Russian-speakers living in Finland and the number could double in just five years, according to a recent report. It is the third most used language.

Many of these Russian 'immigrants' are highly educated - something that Finnish companies and institutions have been slow to react to.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 07:27:05 AM EST
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Russian speakers (4.00 / 2)
Helsingin Sanomat: Report: Russian-speakers often suffer abuse at school and at work

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 07:29:42 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 0)
There are also a lot of ethnic Russians in Latvia - I'm not sure of the figures for other Baltic states, but overall there must be quite a significant Russian population already within the EU.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 10:03:51 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (4.00 / 2)
Those people are stateless or at best second-hand citizens and they have been let down by all three of Russia, the Baltic countries and the EU. We have discussed them here on ET before. See


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 10:18:00 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 0)
Many thanks - I knew there was  problem, but had not read up on it.  I suspect this is an issue I could raise on the Thinkaboutit site and annoy some of the east Europeans there.  There appears to be quite a strong nationalist and Eurosceptic streak in that collective - I hesitate to use the word community.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 10:21:53 AM EST
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Re: Why NATO is a thing of the Past (none / 1)
Which means that NATO offers to them an alternative to commitment to the EU and European Integration as such ... one in which they can play off goal conflicts between the eastern and western shores of the Atlantic.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 at 06:57:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why NATO is a thing of the Past | 128 comments (128 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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