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George was writing during the "Long Depression" of 1873-1896, and responding to the "Bank Panic of 1873" which, like most 19th century crises, followed a bubble in the construction and financing of railroads.

The issue really is that Capitalism doesn't know how to "grow" other than through bubbles. Some bubbles are based on land values, but not all of them are (see the .com bubble).

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Some bubbles are based on land values, but not all of them are (see the .com bubble).

The Dot Com bubble was - possibly uniquely? - a bubble which was not inflated by leverage (deficit finance), and possibly, actually I'll stick my neck out and say probably that is why the system did not miss a beat in the collapse of the Dot Com bubble?

Discuss?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:14:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what was the .com bubble inflated with? Cash that people happened to have lying around?

The (US) economy was going into recession as a result of the .com bubble bursting and then 9/11 happened and then Greenspan set real interest rates negative for 18 months "to avert a nasty recession", as well as encouraging domestic mortgage equity withdrawals. So a debt and land value bubble was created as a way to avert a recession.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:18:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
So, what was the .com bubble inflated with? Cash that people happened to have lying around?

There are restrictions on buying stock on margin, of course. So yes, lots of people - including a lot of very shrewd business people allowed common sense to be temporarily overtaken by the Madness of Crowds.

Migeru:

The (US) economy was going into recession as a result of the .com bubble bursting

Can you back up that statement? I just saw the bubble as a major pimple on the arse of the economy. It didn't really affect the real economy at all IMHO....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:23:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:

Migeru:

The (US) economy was going into recession as a result of the .com bubble bursting

Can you back up that statement?

It appears that Martin Wolf, Ben Bernanke, and ETers Jerome and Martin all agree on that point in the discussion to my Musings on the savings-glut theory diary of October 17th, 2008.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How can I argue against such a consensus? :-)

Still worth kicking the point around though.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
How can I argue against such a consensus?
Like you did already, presumably...

ChrisCook:

But to come back to the point of the Diary, Wolf's assumption is that in some way the "Savings Glut" is pre-existing money which has been lent to unwise property purchasers/ investors.

The chain of causality is the other way around.

Secured loans were made to by credit institutions to assist in property purchases, and due to the deficit nature of the money supply these interest-bearing loans created new money which inflated the bubble still further.

The direct cause of asset price inflation is the deficit basis of money created as debt

A very large part of this new money which was instantaneously deposited back into the system was thereupon used by American consumers to buy Chinese etc goods, and this was then saved, by being deposited in the banking system somewhere in the world.

The Bubble caused the Savings Glut: the Savings Glut did not cause the Bubble.

But there you were addressing the claim that the Chinese "savings glut" had a deflationary impact on the US economy.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:44:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Like you did already, presumably...

LOL

You know a rhetorical question when you see one, then...

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 10:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Musings on the savings-glut theory

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the collapse of the dotcom bubble was turned into the housing bubble by Greenspan?
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:20:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that is probably the reason why Greenspan did what he did.

But my question is. Did he actually need to?

Thank goodness Greenspan did, though. He fucked up the system at least ten years before time as a result.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:28:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Dot-com bubble
The venture capitalists saw record-setting rises in stock valuations of dot-com companies, and therefore moved faster and with less caution than usual, choosing to mitigate the risk by starting many contenders and letting the market decide which would succeed. The low interest rates in 1998-99 helped increase the start-up capital amounts. Although a number of these new entrepreneurs had realistic plans and administrative ability, many more of them lacked these characteristics but were able to sell their ideas to investors because of the novelty of the dot-com concept.
The .com bubble was funded by venture capital and IPOs, and helped by low interest rates. How do low interest rates "help increase start-up capital" if not because of deficit finance?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
The low interest rates in 1998-99 helped increase the start-up capital amounts.

Low interest rates and easy credit would have helped start the Dot Com businesses for sure, but I don't think these would have had any effect on share prices (ie the bubble).

There's a big difference between creating new (apparently, in this case) productive assets with start up capital (of whatever type) and buying existing ones with borrowed money.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
There's a big difference between creating new (apparently, in this case) productive assets with start up capital (of whatever type) and buying existing ones with borrowed money.
How about using borrowed money to provide the startup capital? If the "new productive assets" turn out to be nothing of the sort, you still have inflated asset values using borrowed money.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:37:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
How about using borrowed money to provide the startup capital? If the "new productive assets" turn out to be nothing of the sort, you still have inflated asset values using borrowed money.

Insofar as borrowed money went into what became valueless assets, then the result would be a bubble. When the relevant loans defaulted, then the result could be recessionary.

I have no idea if and to what extent this happened. I'd be interested to know

But it certainly wasn't leverage that inflated the share prices to insane levels on the back of insane valuations.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 09:44:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stocks in listed dot-coms where inflated by marginal transactions. It didn't require that all those trillions be spent, only some billions.

And these where spent by bluechip companies acquiring select start-ups so as to look "trendy"

And the acquisitions were funded by debt, provided by banks, on terms that couldn't be repaid by the incremental cash flows brought to the acquirer by the startup (as they were all losing money actually).

Investment banks propped up the bubble on the idea that tech prices would always inflate (remember house prices ?)

VC capital is a small part of the scheme by amount. It became easy to come by as soon as it appeared there was infinite demand on listed markets for the shares of pets.com etc

When the bubble burst, we had the bankruptcy of mci worldcom, global crossing, near-bankruptcy of vivendi, state rescue of france telecom, etc, etc...

rates where set a real-zero to enable corporations to make money (on credit took by their customers) so as to amortize their loans sitting in the balance sheet of the big IB.

Does this cynical explanation suit you ??


Pierre

by Pierre on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 10:05:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice one, Pierre.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 at 11:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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