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Why is giving the impression of doing something impartially, more important than actual improvement of the situation on the ground? Is it some sort of puritan fixation on punishment that I don't get?

Yes, humanitarian interventions are sold on the basis of the white hatted West riding to the rescue of poor oppressed underdeveloped helpless natives.  The Serbs made the mistake of being the dominant ethnic group in Yugoslavia and afterwards and rather over-played their hand by engaging in activities that were uncomfortably reminiscent of WW2.

The fact that Albanian/Croatian/Bosnian atrocities followed merely confused the simple narrative required to maintain popular support for expensive interventions and so were largely ignored - even when predicted and expected.

National boundaries have historically been determined largely by the outcomes of wars between princes and other rulers, often in a colonial context.  The problem is that since the 20th. Century advances in military technology and the scale of civilian casualties led to a search for another methodology, but there really isn't any mechanism in International Law for creating new states - as to do so, by definition, violates existing Sovereign boundaries.

Thus gross human rights violations, genocide and the implosion of empires are about the only proximate causes for creating a new state architecture, and usually, even those aren't enough.  Europe/USA has enough problems with the Islamic world without creating a new theatre for war in Europe. So the Serbs were unceremoniously squashed.  Hopefully the resulting fragmentation will soon be accommodated within the EU and allow those divisions to be reduced somewhat, but the bitterness military actions create will take generations to overcome.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 03:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
activities that were uncomfortably reminiscent of WW2.

I beg to differ. There is just NO comparison possible here.

by vladimir on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 04:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The public perception in this part of the world is that there is. I still can't work out anything resembling a truth through the haze of competing propaganda, except that it was all about a hundred times more complicated than was presented through the media here.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 04:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The competing propoganda is a big problem for me. The heavyweights of US foreign policy write in Foreign Affairs magazine, which makes it useless to me. It's extremely rare to find a useful article in FA, though Joseph Muller's essay on ethnicity is one example that comes to mind. Foreign Policy magazine, to which I subscribe, presents me with the same problem. "America's Hard Sell" had one or two insights I find useful and which resonate.

The foreign policy community is verbose, which is both a blessing a a curse, because though there are quite a few gems out there, finding them in all the slag is a huge chore.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 06:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The irony in all this, of course, is that while Saddam Hussein was mustard gassing the Kurds in the 1980s, there was no call for humanitarian intervention. Indeed, he was an American ally. And he stayed a European ally all during the 1990s. Yet, because of the deeply idiotic US President of the 2000s, the call to stop Saddam was largely opposed by the global human rights community. It just seems so odd to me, and clearly I realize that the US was not really interested in a humanitarian intervention, that the genocidal lunatic extracted a degree of sympathy. It's also just as clear that Milosevic was really a lightweight compared to Saddam--and the current Iranian leadership, for that matter.

Yet, of all these genocidal lunatics (Bush, Milosevic, Saddam, whomever in Iran decided to annihilate Kurds in the 1980s) the one generally equated with Hitler is Milosevic. Milosevic is probably the lowest on the totem pole when it comes to atrocities perpetrated. If we all agree that the worst crime committed by Milosevic and the Serbs was the thousands killed at Srebrenica, it certainly would surprise most to hear of UN and NATO generals stationed in the Bihac pocket give testimony that they considered the forced kidnapping (and subsequent murder) of those men to be a form of revenge. Why did the UN Dutch troops hold back? Because they (as well as their commanders) were in the pocket a year earlier when Bosnian Muslims had killed 2,500 Serbs. This is indeed the slipperiness of the entire war. 100,000 dead, 50,000 Muslims, but also 50,000 Serbs and Croats. In this light, the unlawful punishment of Serbs in Kosovo seems rather crazy, absurd. The fact that Colin Powell made this evident to Madeleine Albright does me no good since the same man encouraged the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses four years later. It really makes you wonder.

The great ironies, however, come when something like Operation Storm is considered a viable response to the Serbs, or when Bernard Kouchner says that some degree of revenge for Albanians is understandable in Kosovo. It really boggles the mind.

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 04:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Upstate NY:
And he stayed a European ally all during the 1990s. Yet, because of the deeply idiotic US President of the 2000s, the call to stop Saddam was largely opposed by the global human rights community

I don't know about the US, but the European left was pretty vociferous in its condemnation of Saddam and was then hugely nonplussed by the US invasion which they knew was for all the wrong reasons but which offered the prospect of doing what they couldn't do - actually get rid of him.

South African whites, Apartheid era, were often hugely angry at the "western" condemnation of Apartheid when the deaths and suffering paled in comparison to an Idi Amin.  I argued at the time that the reason for this apparent double standard was that South African whites claimed to be European, Christian, civilised, democrats, and Europeans could not admit their claim to relative legitimately without admitting that racism was ok in Europe as well.

If this analysis is even partially correct, then Milosevic was more harshly judged because he too acted in the name of a European, white Christian, democratic country.  There are plenty of ethnic tensions in and around Europe which could be stirred up if his claim was to be allowed to stand.  Very few (in my neck of the woods anyway) could name the leaders of Croatia, Bosnia, or Kosovo by comparison.

You need a "face of evil" if you want to market an intervention, and Milosevic had the misfortune to become it.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 05:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet, because of the deeply idiotic US President of the 2000s, the call to stop Saddam was largely opposed by the global human rights community.

Are you serious about that?

By far the most people, that died under the rule of Saddam in Iraq, died during the Iran/Iraq war. In this war, in which Iraq attacked Iran, the West in general, but under strict leadership of the USA, supplied Saddam with all the stuff, that later was cited as WMD.

There are credible hints, that Saddam were given hints, that he can attack Kuwait, without Western reaction. Saddam asked the US for permission for that war. My best guess, as to why this was allowed, is, that after the end of the cold war, it wasn't convenient any more to have a strong military Iraq, but the West wasn't able to attack under international law, if Saddam didn't attack first. A political masterpiece by Bush I.

At the end of the 90/91 Iraq war, the US gov't got out the message, it would support an insurgency against Saddam. A lot of Shiites tried, but as the US of course didn't want to strengthen the archenemy Iran, there was no response, when Saddam did revenge for the insurgency.

The weakened Saddam had to keep WMD or at least the rumor, that he would have WMDs to keep in power. Even without any military strength, this was used to implement sanctions, that killed up to 400000 people in Iraq. France demanded to give up the sanctions, but the US vetoed together with Britain against all other members.

The couple of 10000 people that were killed by Saddam's order without consent of the USA really shouldn't justify an intervention, with as much or more dead people, even in the best case - we know now, that the best case wasn't the case that came true, but the justification for any intervention on humanitarian grounds in Iraq is highly questionable at best, when the millions of dead were with the consent of possible interventionists.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 09:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How does that respond to my post?

I wrote that Saddam was the US's ally, I wrote that there wasn't a hue and cry for humanitarian intervention back then. By the way, you need to check out what Saddam was up to after the Gulf War. He kept on killing. It wasn't limited to the Iran/Iraq War. His numbers dwarfed Milosevic's after the war.

The point I was making is this: you had a genocidal lunatic in Iraq who was still killing (dissidents and Kurds, mainly). If retribution for past crimes applies to policy against the Serbs then how do you explain the attitude toward Hussein?

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 10:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Kosovo war was sold as stopping an ongoing crime, not as retribution for past crimes.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you putting emphasis on the "selling?" I know that's how it was sold. But we're talking about the reality here, aren't we?

1,500 were killed over two years prior in battling between a terrorist group, the KLA, and Serbian police in the province. We are talking about a low-level counter-insurgency. This pales in comparison to what Saddam was doing well past the Iraq-Iran War. 30,000 are estimated to have been executed as political prisoners alone in the years leading up to the recent invasion/war.

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You accuse people, who care for human rights, to have objected the war in Iraq as bigot, because of extreme double standards. For that indeed it is relevant, which informations were out in the public, and not what the reality on the ground was.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An in Germany there were as well demonstrations against the Kosovo war. There was for sure no 100% support for it.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:48:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really think we're having a failure to communicate. I was just pointing out the irony of it all. This was in relation to comments about the media in Europe and elsewhere. If our media didn't consistently take the national line in foreign policy, then I'm sure people wold feel differently about the wars.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 12:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually it was sold as an ongoing genocide.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The attitude towards Saddam was not as harsh as it should have been, because people didn't want a war. Nobody seriously denies, or has ever denied that Saddam has done lots of very evil crimes. But it when you try to stop a war effort against a country ruled by this dictator, it isn't the right time to put the focus on that.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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