Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Some points.

First off, since these sort of humanitarian problems often as not come about from civil war, would not a decisive intervention on one side or the other, followed by a traditional humanitarian operation in cooperation with the now-friendly government make more sense?  Sure, taking sides is a violation of sovereignty, but since that's already on the table, might as well think about the BEST violation of sovereignty.

Putting sovereignty aside, one should also think about partition.  In many parts of the world, current borders are ridiculous post-colonial artifices that have proven unworkable.  If a nation is prone to constant civil war between two regional/ethnic factions, shouldn't the two just be separated?

These are rather heavy handed tactics that reek of imperialism.  No - they are a form of imperialism.  But this is a discussion to have, I suppose - is the imperialistic suppression of dysfunctional elites preferable to the humanitarian catastrophe that results when those same dysfunctional elites decide to fight it out over crumbs?

Finally, let's think this through in a historical context.  If the global community has a responsibility to intervene in cases of a states abdication of its duty to protect its own citizens, then should Europe have intervened to stop Stalinism?  Or Maoism?  The reasons why Europe didn't are obvious, but it's worth thinking through them in this context.

by Zwackus on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 06:25:12 AM EST
I think you're overstating the nature of the international communities actions towards Sudan. Economic sanctions haven't been suggested. Nobody is asking China to stop buying Sudanese oil, nobody is asking Russia to back away from the oil development projects it is being offered, as everyone knows that the effects of sanctions bypasses the rulers and can be devastating to the population.

The other side of the imperialist coin is that in order to be recognized as a member of the international system, it is reasonable to expect that you don't commit mass atrocities on your own citizens because you want the oil beneath the ground they live on.

We are a long, long way from "imperialism" here.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 07:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But absolutely we should look at things in a historical context. Would Stalin have been able to purge the Kulaks if images had been broadcast throughout the world of the consequences? I doubt he would have lasted a year.

That being said, there is an element of fighting the last war here. Certainly Kofi Anan was moved to start this whole debate as a direct result of his experience with Rwanda.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 07:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How many images of the 800 000 dead in Iraq have you seen on TV lately?
by vladimir on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, one other thing. R2P explicitly tries to do two things: avoid taking sides in a conflict, or aim at a regime change. The authors go on at some length about the necessity of "Right Intentions" in military interventions, including leaving the military option dead last on the list of measures to take. Very much in the spirit of Susan Powers' statement I quoted.

The intervention in Sudan is an attempt, I believe deiberate by some, to mitigate a conflict through purely diplomatic means. So, I hope the CPA succeeds in the end, though I think it's a hundred-year project. The CPA is a monster of an agreement.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 01:21:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Samantha Power

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 03:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Putting sovereignty aside, one should also think about partition.  In many parts of the world, current borders are ridiculous post-colonial artifices that have proven unworkable.  If a nation is prone to constant civil war between two regional/ethnic factions, shouldn't the two just be separated?

Lincoln would object.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, he would.  Then again, the Civil War was also a pretty severe humanitarian crisis.  Should it have been prevented from outside?
by Zwackus on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 08:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Should it have been prevented from outside?

I would venture a yes, but the world wasn't so high minded in those days.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu Mar 12th, 2009 at 07:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How precisely?

The Cyprus solution? How many divisions would that have required?

And how would the intervening powers know that what they were getting was a Cyprus, not a Lebanon?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Mar 12th, 2009 at 07:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think diplomatic and economic intervention could have solved the problems before the war began.  The States and central government mechanism were clearly incapable of doing it.  However, I do not believe the war was inevitable. In fact it resulted from serious blunder and miscalculation (not unusual causes of war) that could have been corrected easily.  The underlying causes would, admittedly taken great effort to resolve, but given the conditions of the day it could have been accomplished and 600,000 plus lives spared.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Mar 13th, 2009 at 12:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So something like telling the Confeds that the rest of the world wouldn't buy slave-picked cotton?

That might work. Of course, it would also have presented rather serious issues for Britain and France given their... less than savoury behaviour in their colonies.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Mar 13th, 2009 at 11:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly like that, and telling the North that the slavery issue was a national problem that everyone had to help resolve.  The issue of what to do with all those suddenly unemployed slaves was one that pushed Southerners to war more than just the right to keep slaves.  No more passing laws to keep freed slaves in the Southern States.  Tough decisions and proper intervention back then would have saved a lot of heartache and problems that we've faced over the years, regardless of ones color and background.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Mar 13th, 2009 at 03:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series