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Yet, because of the deeply idiotic US President of the 2000s, the call to stop Saddam was largely opposed by the global human rights community.

Are you serious about that?

By far the most people, that died under the rule of Saddam in Iraq, died during the Iran/Iraq war. In this war, in which Iraq attacked Iran, the West in general, but under strict leadership of the USA, supplied Saddam with all the stuff, that later was cited as WMD.

There are credible hints, that Saddam were given hints, that he can attack Kuwait, without Western reaction. Saddam asked the US for permission for that war. My best guess, as to why this was allowed, is, that after the end of the cold war, it wasn't convenient any more to have a strong military Iraq, but the West wasn't able to attack under international law, if Saddam didn't attack first. A political masterpiece by Bush I.

At the end of the 90/91 Iraq war, the US gov't got out the message, it would support an insurgency against Saddam. A lot of Shiites tried, but as the US of course didn't want to strengthen the archenemy Iran, there was no response, when Saddam did revenge for the insurgency.

The weakened Saddam had to keep WMD or at least the rumor, that he would have WMDs to keep in power. Even without any military strength, this was used to implement sanctions, that killed up to 400000 people in Iraq. France demanded to give up the sanctions, but the US vetoed together with Britain against all other members.

The couple of 10000 people that were killed by Saddam's order without consent of the USA really shouldn't justify an intervention, with as much or more dead people, even in the best case - we know now, that the best case wasn't the case that came true, but the justification for any intervention on humanitarian grounds in Iraq is highly questionable at best, when the millions of dead were with the consent of possible interventionists.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 09:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How does that respond to my post?

I wrote that Saddam was the US's ally, I wrote that there wasn't a hue and cry for humanitarian intervention back then. By the way, you need to check out what Saddam was up to after the Gulf War. He kept on killing. It wasn't limited to the Iran/Iraq War. His numbers dwarfed Milosevic's after the war.

The point I was making is this: you had a genocidal lunatic in Iraq who was still killing (dissidents and Kurds, mainly). If retribution for past crimes applies to policy against the Serbs then how do you explain the attitude toward Hussein?

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 10:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Kosovo war was sold as stopping an ongoing crime, not as retribution for past crimes.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you putting emphasis on the "selling?" I know that's how it was sold. But we're talking about the reality here, aren't we?

1,500 were killed over two years prior in battling between a terrorist group, the KLA, and Serbian police in the province. We are talking about a low-level counter-insurgency. This pales in comparison to what Saddam was doing well past the Iraq-Iran War. 30,000 are estimated to have been executed as political prisoners alone in the years leading up to the recent invasion/war.

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You accuse people, who care for human rights, to have objected the war in Iraq as bigot, because of extreme double standards. For that indeed it is relevant, which informations were out in the public, and not what the reality on the ground was.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An in Germany there were as well demonstrations against the Kosovo war. There was for sure no 100% support for it.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:48:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really think we're having a failure to communicate. I was just pointing out the irony of it all. This was in relation to comments about the media in Europe and elsewhere. If our media didn't consistently take the national line in foreign policy, then I'm sure people wold feel differently about the wars.
by Upstate NY on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 12:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually it was sold as an ongoing genocide.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The attitude towards Saddam was not as harsh as it should have been, because people didn't want a war. Nobody seriously denies, or has ever denied that Saddam has done lots of very evil crimes. But it when you try to stop a war effort against a country ruled by this dictator, it isn't the right time to put the focus on that.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 9th, 2009 at 11:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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