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European Tribune - Don't expect rationality from Americans
I find it fascinating in light of the fact that Lisbon failed in Ireland where "traditional" values hold sway over rational empiricism, even more so than in the United States.

I find this statement very counter-intuitive in that, in my view, Ireland has changed more in the past 20 years than any other country I know.  I haven't the time at the moment to consult the world values survey on which the statement is presumably based, but if I get the time I may do so.

Having said that, I am extremely sceptical of "modernization" theories and am not sure I could buy into the theoretical framework the "empirical" study is allegedly based on.

Is the reference to the rejection of Lisbon reference also based on that study?  If so the authors are in for a rude shock, because if current surveys are correct, Lisbon will be passed by at least a 60:40 margin if a second referendum is held - without necessitating or presuming any change in the underlying value systems.

Modernization theory is as dubious in sociology as neo-lib economics is in economics.  It reflects the values of its authors more than it provides any interesting insights into the societies in purports to study...  (But that's just my dogmatic assertion based on previous encounters with that sort of theorising...)

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Apr 19th, 2009 at 04:25:25 PM EST
Countries are resurveyed every "wave". How this data is reflected in that map, I'm not qualified to say: the most recent survey? Some kind of averaging of all the surveys conducted in that country? Not all countries have participated in every wave. Some have been only in the last, and more countries will be added (specifically, Inglehart and Welzel intend to include more Islamic countries in the next survey for the first time).

Well, this may turn out to be the next incarnation of social darwinist type theorizing, I'll update you a few years from now :)

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Sun Apr 19th, 2009 at 09:48:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger

Is the reference to the rejection of Lisbon reference also based on that study?

That was just a passing observation on my part. I know that any specific issue, election, or personality depends on lots of factors besides any description of a societies values. The attractiveness of the personalities involved. Historical accident. Who has the better field/media/organizational structure (etc). Discipline. Reaction to recent history. (If all this sounds more like what matters most in US elections, it's because that is what I know best.)

Basically, I just had an "AHA!" moment when I saw where Ireland landed on the cultural map in relation to the rest of Europe. Would a differnet approach worked better during the Lisbon debate? I'm hardly the one to say, but I might seriously consider weighting my approach with this study in mind. If nothing else, it may test the validity and/or scope of the study's possible application.

That Jerome picked up on the lack of crowd reaction to Obama's saving "God's creation" phrasing was another "AHA!" moment.

For my part, the whole modernization leading toward democracy theory seems impractical anyways. I definitely don't buy the "democratic peace" theory either. (Democracies go to war as much as authoritarian or centralized states, but the almost never go to war against other democracies. I believe that if all the world were equally effective democracies, there would still be wars.)

Like Sergio Viera de Melo, I think it might make greater sense to emphasize, rather than democracy, enhancing individual dignity. That's something to think about, anyways.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Sun Apr 19th, 2009 at 10:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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