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Patrice Ayme:
In the Battle of Algiers, hardened terrorists used quite a few naive souls who thought it was cool to carry bombs around. Those soft targets would break instantaneously under torture.

That doesn't mean that torture helped prevent any attacks:

Does torture work? - Salon.com

[...]What made the difference for the French in Algiers was not torture, but the accurate intelligence obtained through public cooperation and informants.

In fact, no rank-and-file soldier has related a tale of how he personally, through timely interrogation, produced decisive information that stopped a ticking bomb. "As the pain of interrogation began," observed torturer Jean-Pierre Vittori, "they talked abundantly, citing the names of the dead or militants on the run, indicating locations of old hiding places in which we didn't find anything but some documents without interest." Detainees also provided names of their enemies -- true information, but without utility to the French.

I also have problems with the following:

Patrice Ayme:

but the police, around 1300 CE, found that scientific torture, so to speak was extremely efficient). By 1600 CE, it had become too soft, though.

PA

"Scientific"? WTF? What does that mean? What sources are you quoting. "Police"? AFAIK "police" in the modern sense did not begin to emerge until the late 18th C.

Also, as to your larger argument: Are you saying that torture is sometimes morally justifiable, provided it is "scientific"? That would seem to run counter to the thrust of your diary.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 at 03:13:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree my diary may seem confusing, so is the truth, often. It is CERTAIN that torture, OCCASIONALLY works. So my position is subtle: do not legalize it (as Obama is trying to do), and, if it occurs, examine the facts (through a judicial process), with the understanding that, just as occasionally homicide is justifiable, so is torture. so I treat torture as any other violence.

Interesting the information on Salon. I will check sources. I proceed by memory traces inside my head, quite often.

Science means to know. State police achieved Gestapo like efficiency, or better under Philipe IV, Le Bel. Those tortures were quite bad, and judges frowned on them, while the police got better at informant science, so they fell in disuse.

PA

 

Patrice Ayme Patriceayme.com Patriceayme.wordpress.com http://tyranosopher.blogspot.com/

by Patrice Ayme on Wed Apr 29th, 2009 at 06:03:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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