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Don't be depressed.  Colman asked for more open dissent, we have it here.  i don't agree with all that Frank posted, but i absolutely respect his insight and intent.

I would only ask Frank to consider that given the unbelievable circumstances in which we must now operate, global meltdown and all, agreement with the basic premises of progressive thought is a bit deeper than "illuminati preaching to the converted."

Come all, we're searching in the darkness for a way out, and this forum has to be at least a reasonable way forward, and likely much more.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anas Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 06:42:54 PM EST
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Crazy Horse:
Colman asked for more open dissent, we have it here.

No we don't!

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 06:50:44 PM EST
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We have it here... in this diary.  That's all i meant.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anas Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 06:56:34 PM EST
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He was dissenting.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 07:09:00 PM EST
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ooops that was just me joking in a serious Diary again.... ;-)

On a serious note I might soon have a little 2 x 2.5 Mw turbine gig I would need a bit of "meta consultancy" help with.

A proof of concept energy partnership.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 07:11:09 PM EST
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Make it happen.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anas Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 07:18:14 PM EST
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I am interested in heading in the same direction with wind power. I have been doing a bit of surfing. A savois? windmill might make a good first project. Cheap, and perhaps relatively easy to build, but rather limited in max power output.

The best spots for easily accessible wind power in Ontario are maybe a third of a km from my house. "Unfortunately" I am in a microclimet that reflects temperatures 150 km to the south. IE. sheltered valley (and lake effect.) That said, it appears that we get some wind, especially in the winter.

Unfortunately, I am in a very different place in my knowledge on wind power construction than you. I need to find the information necessary to begin close to the beginning. Most of what is out there assumes more knowledge than I have.

Buying ready made is just too expensive. On our budget we can't afford a 30K indulgence for a fancy commercial wind mill.

I would also be interested in some "consultancy" - ie: try this book or this web site. It might be a bit before we get our garden in and everything, but it is a project that is definitely on my list.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 08:06:32 AM EST
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Colman asked for more open dissent, we have it here.

This is not dissent, this is just telling us we (I) failed. True or not, it's depressing in both cases.


i absolutely respect his insight and intent.

I'd like to know what his intent is, because I don't get it.

As you know, my theory is that you get from a blog what you put in it (whether it's information, courtesy, respect or their opposite). Maybe I'm too buned out and that's what I get from the blog in return: exhaustion, misunderstandings, and signals of failure.

In which case maybe I should simply take a break so that the community can continue without my poisoning it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 10:54:40 AM EST
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Jerome a Paris:
this is just telling us we (I) failed

Might that not be overstating the case?

I think we all realize that this blog will never reach or bond with everyone. It's a shame that Frank has to be the one to demonstrate this truism, but there it is.

This is not a "failure", but a limiting condition.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt t gmail dotcom) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 12:59:57 PM EST
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a sense that ET is never going to achieve its potential as perhaps the leading European Community blog

"never"


ET seems destined to be a case of a few illuminati preaching to the converted


 It just doesn't happen to be the place I would like it to be - which is a much more widely read and blogged place


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 01:09:56 PM EST
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I could be wrong, but I think that Frank expected to be integrated into the inner circle (the FP status?) given his efforts. From what I read, this didn't happen - and created a lot of frustration. "... a few illuminati preaching" is evidence of this. He didn't feel that he was part of the few... and as a result he felt preached to.

So it boils down to what your vision is of ET. A truly collaborative space - in which case you need a process to integrate new FP-ers. Or more of a top-down communications exercise focusing on a defined political agenda - in which case... you don't need the above process.

by vladimir on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 01:22:35 PM EST
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Umph. I got on Frank's case about his surmises upthread, so understandably this makes me a little uncomfortable.

This discussion is challenging enough when we take Frank's diary at face value.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt t gmail dotcom) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 02:06:35 PM EST
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The FP process, like others on or about ET, has been a consensual one, involving the existing FPers and a number of regulars (typicaly those that have been to meetups or are present very regularly), and Frank has been involved. There have been no new FPers for a while, as we did not even have the time to work on it, for various reasons. It was a mistake that we're now trying to correct. But Frank seems to exclude himself from all this.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 02:55:33 PM EST
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To add a little precision:

we did not even have the time to work on it

We were down to three or four active front-pagers throughout the past winter.

It was a mistake that we're now trying to correct.

More than trying: we've been working on changes for the past few weeks, and a new editorial and site management group will be announced very shortly.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 02:35:21 AM EST
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Isn't that first quote slightly out of context? (Though if you want to argue that in the quote in context he's setting the bar for ET higher than for other community blogs I'd have a hard time disputing it.)

But even were that not the case, I think these quotes rather substantiate my point than otherwise:

You can't expect to reach everyone. You can't even expect to reach every thoughtful individual who substantially shares your values. That will always be one of the limiting conditions.

That doesn't mean ET is a "failure", or that you are. You've achieved too much to have to wear that hat.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt t gmail dotcom) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 01:52:34 PM EST
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Sigh...

Sometime I feel this site spends far too much energy on introspection and too little energy on the enemy. Ask yourselves: what would Rommel do?

Really, this is quite worrying as it gives me the exactly same feeling as from the failed leftist sects of the 60's and 70's: people who all have the same basic opinions but who schism over differences so tiny that no outsider can even grasp the nuance.




Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri Apr 10th, 2009 at 03:27:21 PM EST
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And yes, I've been wanting to say this for a long time.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Apr 10th, 2009 at 03:29:56 PM EST
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I feel this site spends far too much energy on introspection and too little energy on the enemy.

Well, a certain instigator of mass murder probably explained that one;-
 "Henry Kissinger once said: "University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."

We aren't making a difference in the european dialogue, so we lack an underlying project which drives our conversations and keeps it on-track. We are reduced to being a group of disparate individuals who share a roughly similar political view. And given the multiplicity of our cultural backgrounds sometimes, in a written medium, we're gonna get things wrong in terms of how we say things or "hear" them said.

It is the biggest value of the meetups is that, seeing people face to face makes you much more tolerant of their foibles because you have an imprint of the individual as a person rather than just a faceless sig.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Apr 10th, 2009 at 03:45:13 PM EST
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That's probably true - but as I keep on saying, this is quite a new empowering phenomenon (online collaboration) and a certain amount of introspection is important (if not the meaning of life itself) in order to develop a dynamic organization.

This introspection imo is something that has to be gone through to realize the full power of what this empowering enables. I do not know what this will all lead to - but I suspect it will change the face of 'democracy'. I always have this very simple outlook: there are more of us at the bottom than at the top - so we are we getting fucked?

Yes, there are a lot of problems to be addressed immediately, but there is no short-term solution. We have to find out how to work together. To be proactive, rather than reactive. And that means questioning our own democratic values.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 10th, 2009 at 04:44:22 PM EST
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