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How many more are reading along here? Are you taking turns? lol

I don't know whether 'paranormal' was a good choice of word. Science doesn't have an explanation for miracle healings. Scientists call them "spontaneous remission". The name doesn't offer any explanation.

Miracle healings happen. That's a fact.

You want to see God, yet you don't know the meaning of 'spiritual'. That will be difficult, and it's not meant to be because God cannot be seen, only experienced through faith. Quantum theories won't do, and I won't do but we can take it easy because I'm not imposing on you what you cannot see. I only invite you to have a look for yourself.

Later -

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:29:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lily:
How many more are reading along here? Are you taking turns? lol
News flash: this is a blog, not a private conversation.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[yes, I'm STILL here]

I know it's a blog :) but the debate is quite advanced... so.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See the "recent comments" tab at the top of the screen? Following along is easy.

Religion doesn't have an explanation for miracle healing. It calls them "miracle healings" and witters on about the grace of Apollo and the favour of the Three Hags.

I don't want to see God. You do.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:34:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay then.
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW: Do you hereby acknowledge God's existence?
In fact, you do. You hear that others 'see' God, respect what they see and you just don't want to see the same as well.
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:00:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, though if you were wilfully misinterpreting what I said you might manage to construct that from it.

Other people experience something they call "God". That only tells me about what they experience, not what is real or true: it's an interesting datum about how humans work, not how about how the universe works.

Or, to put it another way, my best guess is that "God" is a brain-fart.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's very possible in the next 50 years of Central Nervous System research, both physiological and systematic, that 'experiences' will be well understood.

I am already convinced that subjective transitions of emotions/moods/feelings (and why not beliefs?) are biochemical. Exactly how these biochemicals change or transition a 'mood state' depends on what is there already, both in terms of memory (patterns of past experience decentralized), genetics and any physical 'damage' that may have occurred.

Roxy Music sang that 'Love is the drug'. It's actually the other way round.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:22:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. Though I wouldn't hold my breath for the 50 years ... I rather suspect it'll take longer than that to work out the tools to think about it, never mind actually understanding it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But is 'sometime' scientific? ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lily:

Science doesn't have an explanation for miracle healings. Scientists call them "spontaneous remission". The name doesn't offer any explanation.

Miracle healings happen. That's a fact.

Hold it right there.

"Spontaneous remission" happens. That's a fact.

Calling it a "miracle healing" is an interpretation.

Since the fact that remission or healing took place can be agreed on, but whether there was a supernatural event ("miracle") involved  is not agreed on.

A doctor may say "I don't know how this happens". And you come and say "I know, it was a miracle". And how do you know? "Because of my faith".

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:35:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, quite. A nice wide statistical survey of health benefits would be more useful than cherry-picked accounts of miracles which may or may not be independently verifiable.

When people try do this, results are mixed - at best.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can ignore these events and find the comfort you're looking for in history. You live in a free country.
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:07:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You may call it spontaneous remission or miracle healing. There's no scientific way to explain how a cancer that had been there suddenly disappears.
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The scientific explanation is "We don't understand that yet."
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The body's immune response wins out?

But why is it so wrong to say honestly, I don't know?

Does accepting it was a supernatural event inform future treatments of other patients? No, because a "miracle" is not repeatable.

Accepting you honestly don't know may lead you to research what actually happened and you may end up making a therapeutic advance.

Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:08:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does accepting it was a supernatural event inform future treatments of other patients? No, because a "miracle" is not repeatable.

That's not quite so. If you begin to look outside science, you will find that there's an immense spiritual world that can be understood (and is understood by some). It can explain such spontaneous healings. You'd have to open your minds to be able to integrate these insights and applications into what's known in science. But nobody has to.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You ignore psychosomatic effects. "What do you call alternative medicine that works? - medicine"

The entire animal is a feedback system. You can't separate out the bits that are physical or metaphysical, or which is the product of which. So in one sense I agree with you - belief is part of the human (at least) system. But belief is only one small area of the total ecosystem that is called a human.

But then again I believe that consciousness is a simple product of complexity i.e. the 'experience' that emerges when different parts of the brain 'terminate' simultaneously.

And none of this in any way reduces my sense of wonder at life.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:39:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And none of this in any way reduces my sense of wonder at life.

I like this.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:44:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
You ignore psychosomatic effects. "What do you call alternative medicine that works? - medicine"
Now we could get into whether religion helps motivate people to engage in beneficial behaviours which are beneficial because of psychosomatic effects and not because of any supernatural effects, and whether "enlightened rationality" threw out the baby with the bathwater in the 18th century...

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
'Supernatural' is, as you have been promoting, another name for 'We don't know that yet'. If you'll forgive my clumsy paraphrase.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 12:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you begin to look outside science, you will find that there's an immense spiritual world that can be understood (and is understood by some). It can explain such spontaneous healings. You'd have to open your minds to be able to integrate these insights and applications into what's known in science.

Look, if you're gonna do medicine - particularly serious business like curative and palliative therapies for dangerous diseases like cancer, you need clinical trials and plausible biological explanations. It is downright unethical to start practising any modality that has not been tested for safety and effect.

And guess what? Once it has been tested for safety and effect, it is not "alternative" anymore. Medicine is incredibly open-minded in that respect: If it works for more patients than it harms, then it's in.

Humanity tried "looking outside science" for cures for thousands of years. Then we tried looking inside science for a hundred or so years - give or take fifty years depending on the disease in question.

I know which mortality rate I prefer.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 05:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is in, unless it offends the structures in the medical system.

Washing your hands before treating patients was not in, just because of the proven effect in Ignaz Semmelweis famous study. (Instead he was driven away.)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 10:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as we know
a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
But this doesn't mean that paradigm shifts are not evidence-based.
Kuhn vehemently denies this interpretation and states that when a scientific paradigm is replaced by a new one, albeit through a complex social process, the new one is always better, not just different.


The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Feyerabend similarly says that the changes are generally better by being mathematically simpler.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Though "simpler" is not as simple a concept as it sounds.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:26:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps cleaner, or more elegant. I'm not sure I'd go with simpler!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:28:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think from memory he goes as far as saying easier to calculate, but it is ten years since I read his work.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is surely wrong.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, there's fads and yes there's results that are not accepted for political reasons. But the track record of scientific medicine is still better than the record of non-scientific medicine, even with these flaws.

Or, to put it in another way, data beats consensus, but consensus beats folk medicine.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 at 03:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
God cannot be seen, only experienced through faith.

God can also be experienced through the historical influence and actions of believers.

The results are mostly not encouraging.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 10:49:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no, what you see is collective pathology by people who are manipulated to do what evil human told them.
gig bifference...

a million misapprehensions don't disprove anything.

white crows...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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