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My Thoughts and Perspective as a SERE Graduate, Part I | 20 comments (20 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: My Thoughts and Perspe (4.00 / 8)
Don't buy the snarky "if it was so effective why did they do it 183 times".  It is good for snark to illustrate the real problem, but I don't want people to get lost in "it's not effective".  It's very effective for the actually purpose of totally eliminating a persons willpower and personality.

...Which implies to my mind that it was never really about gaining information.

This is a totally new perspective for me. I hope you post the follow-up diaries as well.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed May 6th, 2009 at 04:28:45 PM EST
No, absolutely not (4.00 / 10)
used for gaining information.  And this is the danger in the US that they think it is so from watching programs like 24.

But anyone of our Spanish colleagues here could confirm if they experienced Franco, or Argentinian members can confirm,

Torture is used by an belligerent regime to terrorize a population or sub-population into submission and it only takes a few and a whisper campaign of what is going on.  Stasi were masters of this.  They only had to turn a few to convince the population to go along.

Torture is not effective for information, it's very effective for authoritarian control.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Wed May 6th, 2009 at 04:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: No, absolutely not (4.00 / 3)
There was torture under Franco - it is not talked about, though. And I was born the day after he died.

There are also allegations of torture since then. They are also not talked about much.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 7th, 2009 at 06:16:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, absolutely not (4.00 / 2)
used for gaining information.  And this is the danger in the US that they think it is so from watching programs like 24.

But anyone of our Spanish colleagues here could confirm if they experienced Franco, or Argentinian members can confirm,

Torture is used by an belligerent regime to terrorize a population or sub-population into submission and it only takes a few and a whisper campaign of what is going on.  Stasi were masters of this.  They only had to turn a few to convince the population to go along.

Torture is not effective for information, it's very effective for authoritarian control.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Wed May 6th, 2009 at 04:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: No, absolutely not (4.00 / 2)
Jeffersonian Democrat:
Torture is not effective for information, it's very effective for authoritarian control.

And for obtaining false confessions for propaganda purposes - thus "proving" that torture "works".

Great Diary, JD.  Perphaps you could explain the acronyms a bit more - they are not familiar to a non US military reader....

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu May 7th, 2009 at 05:48:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, SERE (4.00 / 3)
stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape.  The words are in that order as those are the phases.

First, if you are a pilot and are shot down, the first thing you need to do is survive off of the land.  If you are in bad guy territory, then you need to evade those searching for you.  If you are caught, then you need to resist as best you can and finally, if the opportunity ever presents itself, you need to escape.

The resistance phase of training is to innoculate one, to introduce at a minimum level of intensity and duration, what may be done to you in captivity.  But still an intense program any way.  This is horribly ironic that the methods used in training in a mock POW camp came from not only historical records but from Vietnam and Korean era POWs themselves.  Treatment considered horrible, immoral, and illegal.

Now we, the US, are the ones employing such techniques

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu May 7th, 2009 at 07:35:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Sure, SERE (none / 1)
Thanks.   I meant more:

OLC - Office of Legal Counsel etc.
MCPO
BUDs
SEAL

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu May 7th, 2009 at 05:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Sure, SERE (none / 1)
BUDs Basic Underwater Demolition  SEAL school
MCPO Master Chief Petty Officer - Navy
SEAL - Sea Air Land, US Naval commandos

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 11:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My Thoughts and Perspective as a SERE Graduate, Part I | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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