Top Diaries

Are you looking for a job?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:30:19 PM EST
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No, because I have enough awful clients.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:36:48 PM EST
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BWAHAHAHAHA

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:43:17 PM EST
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Since when is ET awful?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:43:27 PM EST
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It is only awful in regarding words and facts as paramount.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:51:02 PM EST
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Draw that comment!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:56:32 PM EST
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see more Lolcats and funny pictures

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:03:00 PM EST
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Why are there words in it?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:04:29 PM EST
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It's for the younger readers...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:05:07 PM EST
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Hold it there, me ducks.

Sven, if the salon is visually a flop you're welcome to redesign it. You can use standard HTML to your heart's content.

If you two want to have a pie fight, pick another thread.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:07:24 PM EST
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Quink blue, what dat? And why would you feel ashamed unless ... ... you bailed at the eleventh hour.

uh oh.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:42:40 PM EST
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Quink (none / 0)

Is around 17% R, 50% G and 94% B. 5% R, 11% G and 55% B would at least have some reason behind its choice as an EU color - but I haven't looked up the official web colours for the EU blue. I doubt if ET blue corresponds.

I never bail - I ripple ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:58:24 PM EST
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Re: Quink (none / 1)

Ripple. It's economical, no?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:30:24 PM EST
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Re: Quink (none / 1)

Ripple is about changing frequencies. It is only economical in the sense that a symbiotic virus is economical.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:37:10 PM EST
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Re: Quink (4.00 / 2)

if you mix it with half boone's farm strawberry!

lol

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:42:53 PM EST
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So you owe us your sketch of what it should be, smarty-boots.

(BTW, I think your comment goes over the top).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 04:45:14 PM EST
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What is over the top? (none / 0)

Well, first you would have to describe the limits and disadvantages of Scoop. I.e. issue a brief.

But then as you know I am all style and no substance.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:01:21 PM EST
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You seem to be pissed off by something other than the Salon headers.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:03:57 PM EST
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Not at all. I am just distressed by cosmetic surgery that makes the patient uglier.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:06:56 PM EST
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Go away and sleep on it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:07:40 PM EST
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Don't be patronising...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:09:10 PM EST
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BWAHAHA and good night.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:10:33 PM EST
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Don't try to be a mind-reader. You aren't very good at it. In fact, people rarely are.

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky

by poemless on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:20:58 PM EST
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Re: What is over the top? (none / 1)

bwah. I was under the impression --until this moment-- Svanki was complaining about this one.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:29:05 PM EST
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I don't in fact know you're all style and no substance. I do think your comment goes beyond the bounds of reasonable, not to say constructive, criticism.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:07:01 PM EST
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As you will...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:09:43 PM EST
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I don't think users should be down-rated because they've expressed their opinion of the new site design.

Down rating any criticism of the site a bit sketchier than expressing one's criticism, I think. In fact, most sites make design changes from time to time, and they always come with some negative feedback. It's a fact of life. And most sites want to tailor their sites to their users needs.

Actually - now I am super creeped out.

It's not like he was trolling or making personal attacks. The new design is profoundly aesthetically displeasing to more than one person.

You live in a world where not everyone is going to like everything you do. Get a backbone.

Take the opinions of others about your design into consideration or ignore them. But you can't just give people low ratings for that. It's not a personal attack. It's a a longtime user and contributor commenting on the usefulness and tolerability of the design, fer crying out loud. Take it or leave it.

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky

by poemless on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:19:05 PM EST
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While I agree Sven's comment could have been more diplomatically phrased, I agree with poemless that downrating him for expressing an honest opinion is unjust.

Rather than have a flae war, let's just sleep on it huh ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:43:08 PM EST
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Not a fan of the redesign either, or of the downrating.

The categories work well, the graphics don't.

Is there any good reason not to use some nicer looking jpegs as drop-in headers?

The election coverage logo looks much more believable in comparison.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 06:04:12 PM EST
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Re: People and Klatsch (4.00 / 4)

I'm not fighting for the headers (though I drew them up quite some time back to offer them as a possibility, and as they were well received among editors, Fran included them), and don't mind if they're kept or not. But there are those who like them (just as there are those who don't). We could put in jpegs, but the same problem would occur: likes and dislikes, strokes and folks.

What is unjustified imo is judging a Scoop site run by volunteers on professional criteria. Issuing a brief to a professional designer is not among ET's possibilities. Even if it were, there'd still be those who wouldn't agree with the result.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 03:30:48 AM EST
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Well - yes and no. The problem with that argument is that it's not unusual now for amateur sites to look relatively polished. They may not be Scoop sites - which is a different issue - but readers won't be aware of that.

I think if there's any interest in being taken seriously, site design shouldn't be relegated to a side issue.

This doesn't mean it has to go through a total overhaul and a formal design process with briefs and a paid contract.

But if there are very negative reactions it might not hurt to try a range of possibilities, debate which ones are most popular, iterate, and converge on the look that's best received.

There's no reason design shouldn't be done in the same way that other collaborations are done here.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 07:07:26 AM EST
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I've nothing in principle against "collaborative design". However, there has already been a lot of inconclusive meta-discussion about site design, the look of the front page, etc, and it's certain that even on quite major issues there has not been convergence. So the question is whether it's worth spending time on this, if in any case people don't agree in the end.

But people are free to post diaries here with their suggestions, if they think it's worthwhile.

A caveat: the Salon is Fran's contribution to the site, and she will in any case be the person who decides what look it has, just as each member does for their own diaries.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 10:03:30 AM EST
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I gave Sven a 2 (not a troll-rating, as you well know) for the reason I explained - that his comments went imo way beyond reasonable or constructive criticism (which would have been welcome).

If "get a backbone" is addressed to me, I don't think you need worry.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 01:45:38 AM EST
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Sven Triloqvist:

I can't tell you how much

but you can and did...

a bit discourteous for a vizier, sven!

i can't code for shit, so making an aesthetic judgement would be tactless, plenty of prettier sites, but none with the funk and grit of ET!

you can code, but don't want to offer a better version, what's with that?

it might not win any beauty contests, but CONTENT IS KING!

and for who ever it is responsible, well done for trying...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 05:53:21 PM EST
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I don't code (none / 1)

Never have, beyond pascal. But I do know how to brief coders. And you are right -'Content is king'. So why cheapen it?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 06:12:20 PM EST
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Re: I don't code (none / 1)

i guess ET's style is 'no-style', so far, straight down the line, little fuss or muss, to distract one from the content.

your presence, and others like you are the sizzle...

</admanstuff>

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 14th, 2009 at 08:48:11 PM EST
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Re: I don't code (none / 0)

No style is fine. It's a useful statement or USP in the context of all the blogs around. Wikipedia does no-style very successfully. But no-style is not a substitute for simplicity and usability.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 05:32:17 AM EST
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Re: People and Klatsch (4.00 / 4)

Worst powerpoints - heh - not even close.

I don't like the new design, but it's not that much of a distraction to me. The graphics don't dominate the page. Until Jerome et al. have the resources to convert this place from scoop to something more web 2.0 as the oil drum did, I'm not going to complain.

Sadly, threaded comment structures are still a radical idea for most of the web - on that score this place still works pretty well, even if the "science" of web design should be further advanced 15 years on than it is.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 03:04:48 AM EST
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Re: People and Klatsch (4.00 / 5)

Hi Sven, I feel your comment is over the top - tone wise.

I am not totally comfortable with the new design either. But there were complaints that the Salon titel is confusing to newcomers and thus we tried to integrate a explanation for what the Salon is about into the header.

The culprit for the colors is me - I thought we should stick with the EU colors - however, one of the problems is, that different browsers and screens seem to show the colors differently. I tested it on different computers, on one the box looks yellow and on my laptop it looks pinkish. That difference also goes for other colors of the whole page.

Also it is not that we lack ideas and inspirations, but as Millman mentions, scoop seems to be limiting what can be implemented.

Hopefully with the new platform, new designs are going to be possible.

by Fran on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 03:32:28 AM EST
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Could you not have phrased this more constructively?

The header stands out much better on the front page, meaning that new people to the site can easily go to that key place and know what it is about.

As Fran said elsewhere, different monitors and browsers do weird things with the colours and we tried a bunch of combinations. We can't do wonderful pretty things with scoop.

A lot of time and effort (not on my part) went into trying various versions and discussing what worked best. The end result may not be appealing to everyone but a little more support wouldn't go amiss in providing suggestions for improvement, as poemless has done.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 06:32:56 AM EST
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In Wales:

The header stands out much better on the front page, meaning that new people to the site can easily go to that key place and know what it is about.

finding the headers wasn't a problem before, now they scream.

we discussed revamping the salon a year or so ago iirc, cuz i remember asking if the headers could become links, taking you to that spot on the page directly, which would be dead handy when looking for the place to insert a blockquote. as more material is added and the salon becomes bigger and more commented, this would move from being a minor improvement to a real boon.

good idea tbg, about setting up different models and everyone pitching in on the aesthetics, (cosy consensus might be called for here!)
:)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 09:28:06 AM EST
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Regarding the links to the sections, the problem is that they would have to be redone every day, since each Salon is a new story. It's possible, but it's five or more minutes of finickity copy-pasting to do once the Salon is posted, just when the Salon poster is in a hurry to put up items.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 10:09:35 AM EST
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Relative links would be okay for this. I.e. <a href="#1">Europe</a> will link to the first comment in the story, like this: Europe
As long as the sections are always posted in the same order this would work.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 11:30:30 AM EST
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Oh, and I think what In Wales means by the header standing out on the front page is the top part above the fold. It has been pointed out in discussions that the previous above-the-fold bit didn't explain to the uninitiated what the Salon was about. Site regulars knew, but there was little incentive for a lurker or newcomer looking at the front page to click on Read more. This may explain why some critics at least felt that the Salon (an excellent feature) was for the ET initiated only.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 10:15:35 AM EST
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Yes that is what I mean - thanks. The bit that shows up on the FP.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 10:25:20 AM EST
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oh i thought you meant the banner at the beginning of each new section.

as for the c & p part, couldn't a template take care of that?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 10:41:31 AM EST
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http://www.eurotrib.com/comments/2009/5/9/12218/40958/7

I don't think there's a way of automating the copy-paste. The section headers are top-level comments in the thread. The People and Klatsch section we're in now, for example, is headed by comment

If you wrote a macro introducing the http://www.eurotrib.com/comments/ bit which is invariable, you would still have to copy-paste the variable part 2009/5/9/12218/40958/7. It's attributed by Scoop when the comment is posted and can't be known in advance.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 11:05:29 AM EST
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someone has a bright idea above that cancels what I said. It's good having real techies around.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 15th, 2009 at 11:59:55 AM EST
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