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I mean party members - people who join the party and pay their subs.  If people want to stand on behalf of party they must be members and must be selected by the party to be an official candidate, through whichever mechanism depending on the process for that political office.

Recently with our local council elections two people in my branch wanted to stand as councillor (they got on the on the shortlist following vetting).  The branch interviewed both (and could have interviewed others on the shortlist who lived outside the boundaries of our ward but chose not to.)  We chose one and the other kicked off a huge fuss over it and then stood as a candidate anyway. He was expelled from the party for doing that, and stood as an Independent which required no vetting (and lost).

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 05:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my demented American head this is profoundly undemocratic.  In fact, I'm as certain as McFaul is about Russia not being a democracy that Britain is not a democracy.

Signed,
Arrogant American who goes around expecting everyone to conform to my obviously superior political system, while still able to acknowledge your superior healthcare system.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 05:29:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah well in our demented UK heads, we see you as being stuck in your 4 year cycles, having no democratic way to have a new election, if you need one now.

And what about that win an election in November, presidents don't change till January. The people have spoken, and you've been kicked to the kerb. How democratic is that that you get to hang on for three more months? ;)

Swings and roundabouts. ;)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 05:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And what about that win an election in November, presidents don't change till January

True, but our country and bureaucracy are five times the size of yours, and it takes a while to find enough qualified tax-cheats to fill the vacancies. ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 05:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That too.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
several hours later, im still shocked that the bastion of capitalism has a shortage of tax cheats ;)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Jun 6th, 2009 at 08:37:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bastion of capitalism?  Wasn't one of the big European papers going on about us becoming commies the other day?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jun 7th, 2009 at 09:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I don't know - something to do with time to put together a cabinet, agenda, arrange for the move, enroll your kids in their new school, celebrate the holidays.

Russia has a lag time too.  Must be a fascist thing...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:07:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well you know you'd have thought that an agenda would have been arranged ahead of time.....

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I don't think so.  Unless you mean agenda like, "I am pro-healtchare."  Yes, those things are laid out ahead of an election.  By agenda, I mean, figuring out everything that needs to be done, making a strategy for implementing it, and creating a timetable.  And a more or less daily schedule for your first 100 days.  It's a very good time to put together your team, and then together with your team, make all the decisions you can before your are thrust into the job and have reality and the media distracting you every waking moment of your day.  

Preparation is a huge part of any task.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So how does just about every other democracy manage?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was unaware until now it was rare.  The only two countries I really pay close attention to both do it.  

Is every other democracy managing?  Screw that, there are no democracies.  Is Britain managing?  Not according to this diary.  Are presidents of all other countries faced with the same tasks that the president of America is?  I don't think so.  We're a big country, and we have big plans.  :)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:45:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus you have Monarchs for continuity.  We have to transition.  It's like, you are in a marriage for life, but replace your lovers.  We go through a divorce and re-marriage every 4-8 years.  We want to make it as painless as possible.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus you have Monarchs for continuity.

True, but we do have David Broder, and between our two countries, I think the Brits clearly got the better deal.  And at least she comes with the entertaining husband.

We go through a divorce and re-marriage every 4-8 years.  We want to make it as painless as possible.

Yes.  We hated the last ex so much that, seven years after 9/11, we said, "Hey, you know what would be good?  A black guy with a Muslim name."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 11:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Party officials start working on all that stuff in advance. Runs the risk of actual plans being discussed in the elections though.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you were a "Real DemocracyTM" you'd have thought that would be a necessity.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think the party sets the agenda for the President in the US.  I think it is the other way around.  So it would be not only risky, but impractical.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The people has spoken and the electors been elected. They still need to ride to Washington and there elect a president. Takes time, you know.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Think of how the US parties functioned before open primaries became standard. And then think of how they functioned before primaries became standard. At what point did the US become democratic?

Imo, this does not make Britain undemocratic, it makes the brittish parties undemocratic.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 05:35:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure open primaries are standard, or necessary for democracy.

I don't know when Americans first began voting for elected officials.  Near the begining, I presume.  That is, the country was founded as a democracy.  In practice, the fabric of our democracy is like a bikini.  Pretty flimsy, but it covers the main things.

Mind you, we still have the electoral college in the case of the Presidential elections.

I believe everyone else is nominated and elected by popular vote.  Although god knows what they do in Iowa.  They probably read tea leaves or something to pick candidates.

I'm not convinced the US is democratic.  I am, however, eternally thankful we won the revolution.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 06:04:18 PM EST
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If you hadn't, you'd be Canada.

And wouldn't that be a bad thing.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Jun 6th, 2009 at 06:47:08 PM EST
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You can beat me over the head if you want, poemless, but we have had the exact same discussion about primaries and party candidate selection and only paying members being able to vote in primaris, and so on... years ago.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 07:41:25 PM EST
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I don't have a strong opinion on whether open primaries or closed primaries are superior, although I obviously like having the ability to choose candidates from the parties if I have a strong opinion.

On the one hand, it's fair that people who care enough about the party and its politics to join and pay for it might say they should be able to decide.  On the other hand, I kinda like this whole...uh..."winning" thing (this is word, yes? ;) we've been trying out for the last couple of years, and so letting the indies and Reps who are leaning our way have a say in it isn't such a bad idea for the party.  And they like having a say in it, because our primaries are exciting, while the other party's primaries -- let's be honest -- blow.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jun 5th, 2009 at 11:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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