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Yes - that's exactly what I want you to provide evidence of.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 10:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've provided evidence of actions by political leaders which buttress the narrative that the UK government is either against the EU, or defending Britain from EU encroachment, or embarrassed to be pro-Europe or too cowardly to follow its conscience about it.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 11:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - I make that three entirely different narratives. Which one do you prefer?

Also, you've ignored my point about left-leaning legislation and not pushing the referendum issue.

Which would - in fact - have been a vote winner for Labour, if they'd wanted to go down that route and sacrifice Euro membership over political expediency.

So - no.

The reality is that there hasn't been any consistent diplomatic position from Labour at all. There's a patchwork of different preferences which seem to depend on who's talking at the time.

Perhaps that's because there are not a few people of quality and influence who stand to lose significant cash in CAP handouts if the UK leaves.

So they're happy to agitate loudly as a negotiating position, and to herd the proles along, but perhaps not as dedicated to the nuclear option as they might seem to be.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 11:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And all this is Brussels' fault rather than Britain's, exactly how?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 11:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously a democratic organisation trying to use democratic means to create a larger and more coherent democratic organisation should never dream of trying to use democratic methods to influence voters who live within its borders, in any way whatsoever.

The suggestion that it might want to makes absolutely no sense of any kind.

It can't be done, it shouldn't be attempted, no one wants it, it's probably illegal, immoral, and fattening, and the sky will explode if anyone in Brussels so much as considers the possibility.

Congratulations. You and Colman have made my point for me with rare perfection.

Well played.

Now that that's settled - perhaps we can have a diary about how both of you think the pocket nationalists and the sceptics should be handled?

Or is it only a UK problem and not an issue in Spain, Ireland, and elsewhere in the EU?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
perhaps we can have a diary about how both of you think the pocket nationalists and the sceptics should be handled?
By the domestic Europhiles and internationalists?

I thought that's what I have been saying all along.

Or is it only a UK problem and not an issue in Spain
I don't know about "only in the UK" but definitely "not in Spain".

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
H'mmmmm.

If the "few people of quality and influence" don't realize they can't have CAP and a nationalistic message then they are stupider than I thought.  

But, then, the "few people of quality and influence," at least as I can tell from afar, have been operating under a strategy that attempts to skim the economic benefits of EU membership - for them - while fighting, and with all the Opt-Outs granted by the EU: winning, to limit the economic benefits for the British public as well as the social/political benefits.  I suspect the nationalistic message is intended to achieve the latter.

Long Term this strategy is meta-stable as it is inherently self-contradictory.  I be a' thinking your Ruling Class is either going to have to give-up CAP (economic benefits of EU membership) or the British Exceptionalism message.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 11:53:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ATinNM:
But, then, the "few people of quality and influence," at least as I can tell from afar, have been operating under a strategy that attempts to skim the economic benefits of EU membership - for them - while fighting, and with all the Opt-Outs granted by the EU: winning, to limit the economic benefits for the British public as well as the social/political benefits.  I suspect the nationalistic message is intended to achieve the latter.

In a word - yes. That's why it's such a farce.

Chris Cook keeps saying that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. In the UK and elsewhere - they very much do.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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