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How human beings come to think in new narratives is a wonderful topic. As much as how people attach to some frame or some narrative.

I have more or less an idea about how people attach and dettach, accpet and reject frames...about how each one constructs his own personal narrative but there are only partial rules. Each person is a different world engaged inthsoe rules. And I deeply believe that the process is chaotic and deterministic with not that much random noise (I have no proof wahtsoever but I will bet that most physicist agree with me, when we are explained cahotic system with noise we all come to the same conclusion.. this is how I came to be). We do have some indication coming from the excellent predictions socioologists and antrhopologists do predicting human behaviour in a lot of circumstances at short-term scales

But regarding how human beigns develop personal and different narratives, some of them as powerfull as gandhi, well it is a biological and cultural aptitude, like maths. You develop them by training, and the more you train the more you develop teh aptittue.. and may be you may need some brain structure working very well (thanks to some biological properties.. ei maybe encoding genes and proteins may have a small role in it by a cascade effect). It might involve reflexion, stroy-telling and other brain enhanced activities (self-inspection and so on), who really knows je jej certianly I do not know. Add probably it can not be known scientifically... I guess  the answer must go to the wonderful magic box for now :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 02:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie:
the process is chaotic and deterministic

this can be, but does not have to be and I am talking of over twenty years of experience working with clients and helping them to change their map of reality, in way that is more fulfilling and open, then their previous one. Sometimes it can be very easy and fast and at times it can be slow and take some effort. But it is always amazing and gratifying what can happen to someone when they are able to shift their map of reality.

by Fran on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 02:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this does not contradict my point. Interactions are detereministic, but the trajectory is cahotic precisely because meeting someone , or a owrd, at the proper time, or somehting minimal can have huge change.

So the trajectories change completely...So in a snese, working with people is one of the multiple things that maek the system chaortic.. but I would say that you try to use techniques that have been proven to be effective in your everyday life. So in this sense you want them to be deterministic.. to ahve effect.. the problem is that you can not know the exact effect because the system is chaotic...

And I did not even talked about random noise (like bumping into someone).

So I agree with you, but also with Migeru, do not misunderstimate the influence of the narratives we explain to ourselves constantly.... if someone is not in the frame/history/map to cahnge, he/she will not change, no matter what.

A pleasur

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 04:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I agree with you - all I wanted to say is the structural myth can be changed, and I agree you can not always determine the exact way the myth will change in the process, but that was not my point. Now if we want to change it, either consciously or unconsciously, is another question.
by Fran on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mostly agree with you, a lot of very relevant structural myths can be changed...

but somehow I think some are too powerful and too integrated in oneself.

Maybe through strong meditation and learning I could stop feeling obvious that "myself" exist...at most I couls try to understand and take the buddhism philosophy.. but frankly how on earth I am going to think that a tree is thinking in my brain? I think I should have learnt that when I was child... now it is no longer possible.

the same goes for the misterous spatial mythologies.. I am not sure you can change them because, frankly, the only thing I know is that they are very powerful but I do not even understand them even at the basic level.

I am with you there is a lot of fundamental structures that one can change in adulthood.. but I am not sure all of them can be changed.

Still, I am an optimistic kind of guy.. one can change the relevant ones..but this is a stroy a tell to myself :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you that meditation would be one way to become aware of the deeper myths - if you can become the observer you can learn to observe the stories you tell yourself.

And I did not say it was always easy. :-)

by Fran on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you can learn to observe the stories you tell yourself

But you don't need meditation for that. You can just read a lot of Anthropology.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree - it is not the same reading the myths in books and observing them in yourself. From my experience intellect alone is not enough for change, though it can be useful.
by Fran on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:18:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree with you.. for some people reading is more vital than observing a "myself" deeply intoxicated with Monty Python ideas as soem of us here.

Both are useful to different people.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or you could be observing by performing a test.

Implicit Association Test

It is well known that people don't always 'speak their minds', and it is suspected that people don't always 'know their minds'. Understanding such divergences is important to scientific psychology.

This web site presents a method that demonstrates the conscious-unconscious divergences much more convincingly than has been possible with previous methods. This new method is called the Implicit Association Test, or IAT for short.

In addition, this site contains various related information. The value of this information may be greatest if you try at least one test first...

This one showed me a lot of the beliefs I held at the time.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 09:01:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie:
deeply intoxicated with Monty Python ideas

???

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Aug 30th, 2009 at 08:35:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Different ways.... je jeje

Now Migeru can start with meditation and Fran with anthropology.. deal?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you should become a mediator! :-)
by Fran on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My favourite off-time work... well at least my friends always say I am trying to mediate... You know the stuff, put yourself in the other shoes..look at this this in this other way, "what about those goodpeople there who see it different than you", this doe snto necessarily mena that XXX, it cudl mean that XXXX..

Well you know... the stuff.. but somehow I think it should be "artesania" not a full-time organized job :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was talking about you when I said 'reading Anthropology'.

I don't pretend to have the level of narrative self-awareness of yours or Fran's...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 05:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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