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... of building an ecologically sustainable economy on a neo-liberal foundation, for whatever reasons the Greens are often an incoherent marriage of environmental action with neoliberal economic thinking.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 02:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So which Greens do you think about? In general or some specific countries?
I remember a slogan of the german greens some decades ago: "Weder rechts noch links sondern vorn" (Neither right nor left but in front)
And I agree that also in Germany the Greens have too much childlike trust in the market. But the alternative of having a state-planned economy isn't an attractive solution either.
But it's so hard to argue against the brainwashing taking place all over the world day for day that without growth economy collapses. See my first diary on Ponzi economics.
OTOH I'm not sure whether it makes sense to measure all political and economic viewpoints in a single left to right dimension. Perhaps it's even a circle. What's the big difference between Hitler and Stalin?

Cheers, harnoes

Make it as simple as possible but not simpler (Albert Einstein)

by harnoes on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 03:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the alternative of having a state-planned economy isn't an attractive solution either.

That is not the only alternative - one could also attempt to have judicious state intervention in the economy.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 03:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
attempt to have judicious state intervention in the economy

Opposed to the just shovel money into our campaign donor's money pit approach we currently have, at least in the U.S.?

There seems to have been a lot of "state intervention in the economy" in the past 12-18 months. I think this intervention largely has not been for the overall good, just for the good of the world's wealthiest people and corporations at the expense of everyone else.

by Magnifico on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 03:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There has never ceased to be cooperation between the state and big business - the description given by the elder Galbraith in The New Industrial State is still current, with the necessary adaptations. In Europe this accommodation includes the unions (which is why Goldfarb says Merkel is not about to dismantle the German unions). But the state has abdicated the common good. First by inaction, and then when business broke its toys, by shoveling money into their maws.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 03:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:

one could also attempt to have judicious state intervention in the economy.

This strategy doesn't help. I guess most polititians would agree to a certain degree. Over the years I talked once in a while to MdBs (Mitglied des Bundestags = MP) of nearly all German parties. All in all they are not bad people. They think what they do is right. But they don't agree what a "judicious intervention" would be.

Cheers, harnoes

Make it as simple as possible but not simpler (Albert Einstein)

by harnoes on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Welcome to politics. There is no objectively correct or ideologically neutral way to intervene in the economy. (But there are manifestly incorrect ways to do it - see, e.g. the bank bailouts.)

The question is not "whether planning?" - it is "planning to what end?"

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no objectively correct or ideologically neutral way to intervene in the economy.

This includes non-intervention.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hence they fall back on a policy of state non-intervention and deregulation, which is a policy choice and does have consequences as it sets the (dis)incentives within which market actors operate.

On this blog Jerome a Paris and others have written eloquently on the effect that the regulatory environment has on the development of energy and transport infrastructures, and in particular how a deregulated market in which sovereign debt is not allowed to be used for funding infrastructure development is incompatible with the stated policy goals in the area of energy and transport. Specifically, short-term profit pressures and private funding incentivate fuel-burning power plants over renewable energy installations.

So, conscious state non-intervention in the economy is a deletereous policy choice.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neither interest-bearing credit created by credit intermediaries, nor profit to unproductive rentier shareholder owners of trading intermediaries are necessary in a world which is increasingly connected "peer to peer"

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 02:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the alternative of having a state-planned economy isn't an attractive solution either.

Modern "market" economies are already extensively planned by the private governments of large corporations. The state does not introduce planning into an unplanned economy - it redirects the planning towards ends that serve a different (and hopefully more democratically accountable) constituency than the existing corporate governments.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... are the ones I have the most exposure to, the German Greens from being one of the Green parties to be in a government coalition and the Australian Greens from living there for a decade. They both seemed all to ready to kowtow to the neoliberal economic paradigm and corporatist Gold Standard models of government fiscal and monetary policy.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Sep 30th, 2009 at 10:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French greens are quite different. Some are as far to the left as one can be while still being a reformist ; most of their leader dare say the "décroissance" word. Cohn-Bendit is on the right side of the French Greens...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 04:05:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is their vote? That is, is the bastard neoliberal-Green strategy a devil's bargain that a Green party makes in the Nineties and Noughties to get a larger share of the vote, or has a genuine commitment to an ecologically sustainable economy been combined with electoral success in the decades just past?


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Oct 1st, 2009 at 10:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The French Greens were a full part of the "plural coalition" of the left (also including the Communist Party) that was in government in 97-02 and was a real government of the left, with centrists like Stauss-Kahn balanced out by more lefty types like Martine Aubry and the plural partners.

Today, they position themselves clearly to the left, even if part of their appeal is Cohn-Bendit's personality, and his liberal-libertarian leanings.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Oct 3rd, 2009 at 06:02:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But the alternative of having a state-planned economy isn't an attractive solution either.

Why do so many Germans spend their holidays - and Brits their old age - in France? Is it just the weather, or is it all the state-planned infrastructure, social safety nets, distributed activity, etc..?

There is a reason France has been so persistently demonised in the business press, and pushed to "reform": its largely State-coordinated system DOES provide an attractive alternative.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Oct 3rd, 2009 at 06:07:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a reason France has been so persistently demonised in the business press, and pushed to "reform": its largely State-coordinated system DOES provide an attractive alternative.

Yes. Following this line of thought, I've been trying to put together a clear picture of this state coordinated system, and more importantly the genesis of that system for a long time- a picture that could be rationally and persuasively flogged to my American friends and, more widely, in a book that's partially written now. Unfortunately it's taken a back seat to another, more immediate project, but I'll get back to it.
The question I've asked (and never gotten a thorough answer to) is this: How did the idea that health care is a human right become a dominant element in the social narrative here?
Melanchthon has helped, but I need a broader sample of opinion.

As well, there's ample evidence that well-run state-directed economies or businesses can perform very well, thank you, and indeed have some advantages. Yet the mantra of the evils of state planning permeate much of our discussion here. Too weird.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Oct 4th, 2009 at 05:46:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At one point, most of the right wing (and a bit of the left) was quite thoroughly discredited for having collaborated with a rather evil foreign occupant. The resulting forces, being in power after the war, pretty much rewrote the French society from scratch, with the national health care thing included. (and actually, only for workers)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Oct 4th, 2009 at 05:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
its largely State-coordinated system DOES provide an attractive alternative.

It does, but it begs the questions of what is the State, and where does State coordination end and State ownership begin?

In other words, the legal and financial framework I bang on about and the necessity for an enterprise model to replace monolithic opaque (state secret) hierarchical States and monolithic opaque (commercial in confidence) hierarchical Corporations.

IMHO we need flat, flexible, transparent, collaborative networked mechanisms fit for the 21st century knowledge economy.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Oct 4th, 2009 at 09:27:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
they're called "Corps des Mines" and "Inspection des Finances"...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 4th, 2009 at 12:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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