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No. You misunderstood - again.
The point wasn't whether he was preaching against the integration of the Muslims or the Turks... but that he said:

"I understand very well the sensitive point of assimilation. No one can expect you to tolerate assimilation. No one can expect that you submit to assimilation. Because assimilation is a crime against humanity. You should be aware of that."

Original Spiegel article: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,534519,00.html

You then pointed out (or was it Mr. Sierra) that Erdogan was against FORCED assimilation of the Turks into German society. Hence my 2 questions:

  1. How are the Turks in Germany being FORCED to integrate?
  2. Who is it that's forcing them?
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your Spiegel reference does not back up your quote. The verbatim quote from Erdogan on assimilation in that article is:

Cologne's Turkish Spectacle: Erdogan's One-Man Show - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

"I understand that you are sensitive about the issue of assimilation," Erdogan says. "No one can demand that from you."

Where's your source for the rest?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's in the original German version. Gimme a sec and I'll look it up.
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:37:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Turkish. The Spiegel article says the speech was not to be translated into German.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:41:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now why would that be?
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Spiegel journalist says:

Cologne's Turkish Spectacle: Erdogan's One-Man Show - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Erdogan is fully aware of the tense situation. He begins his speech -- which won't be translated into German -- with flowery words.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't mean it could not be translated, obviously. But the speech was in Turkish.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.welt.de/debatte/article1660510/Das_sagte_Ministerpraesident_Erdogan_in_Koeln.html

Ich verstehe die Sensibilität, die Sie gegenüber Assimilation zeigen, sehr gut. Niemand kann von Ihnen erwarten, Assimilation zu tolerieren. Niemand kann von Ihnen erwarten, dass Sie sich einer Assimilation unterwerfen. Denn Assimilation ist ein Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit, Sie sollten sich dessen bewusst sein. Wir müssen jedoch auch Folgendes zur Kenntnis nehmen: Sie können sich im heutigen Deutschland, in Europa von heute, in der heutigen Welt, nicht mehr als ,,der Andere", als derjenige, der nur vorübergehend hier ist, betrachten, Sie dürfen sich nicht so betrachten. Die türkische Gemeinschaft hat sich volle 47 Jahre für dieses Land verausgabt. Nicht nur in Deutschland, in zahlreichen Ländern Europas nähert sich die Zahl unserer Staatsbürger fast fünf Millionen. Es ist bemerkenswert, dass trotz diesem immensen Einsatz, trotz dieser zahlenmäßigen Stärke gewisse grundlegende Probleme in diesen Ländern sich immer noch nicht auf der Tagesordnung befinden. Selbstverständlich werden unsere Kinder Türkisch lernen. Das ist Ihre Muttersprache und es ist Ihr natürlichstes Recht, Ihre Muttersprache Ihren Kindern weitergeben.
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In this German translation we have more, however, than your quote. Erdogan immediately goes on to say:

Dokumentation: Das sagte Ministerpräsident Erdogan in Köln - Nachrichten Debatte - WELT ONLINE

Wir müssen jedoch auch Folgendes zur Kenntnis nehmen: Sie können sich im heutigen Deutschland, in Europa von heute, in der heutigen Welt, nicht mehr als ,,der Andere", als derjenige, der nur vorübergehend hier ist, betrachten, Sie dürfen sich nicht so betrachten.

But we must also take note of the following: in today's Germany, today's Europe, today's world, you can cease to be seen as "the other", as the one who is only here temporarily, you don't have to see yourselves in that way.

It seems to me he was attempting to find the middle ground between assimilation (the abandonment of the original culture) and isolation (reflexive defence of that culture and rejection of the surrounding culture).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
find the middle ground between assimilation (the abandonment of the original culture) and isolation (reflexive defence of that culture and rejection of the surrounding culture)

Erdogan directly references ethnic communities/lobbies in America later on in the speech. His middle ground is between assimilation as obligation and isolation; the one thing that does not come up in his speech is people abandoning the original culture on their own volition.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 07:03:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is some more of the original:

Jedoch würden Sie, wenn Sie die Sprache des Landes erlernen, in dem Sie leben, oder sogar noch einige Sprachen dazu, in jeder Hinsicht davon profitieren. Schauen Sie, viele unserer Kinder hier lernen in frühem Alter keine Fremdsprachen. Diese Kinder werden mit Deutsch erst dann konfrontiert, wenn sie mit dem Schulbesuch beginnen. Und das führt dazu, dass diese Kinder im Vergleich zu den anderen Schülern die Schullaufbahn mit einem Nachteil von eins zu null beginnen müssen. Doch würde es für Sie und für Ihre Kinder in jeder Hinsicht vorteilhaft sein, wenn Sie die Möglichkeiten maximal ausschöpfen, die das hiesige gute Schulsystem Ihnen bietet.

Sie werden einen Beruf ausüben, Sie werden öffentliche Dienste in Anspruch nehmen. Wenn Sie die Sprache des jeweiligen Landes nicht beherrschen, nicht lernen, so fallen Sie unweigerlich in eine Situation der Benachteiligung.

For those not speaking German; he is telling Turks in Germany that learning the local language and maybe even another is good for them, because not learning it automatically leads to disadvantages in school -- and he advises Turks in Germany to capitalise Germany's good school system -- and later in jobs and in using public services.

He continues arguing that this is a pre-requisite for participation in public life, from voting to being elected as a politician, which he also propagates. But, heh, I wonder if you really want integration if political influence is the result...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 06:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me like he said everything and its contrary at that meeting. Pick what you want, for the audience you want.
by Lynch on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 02:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see any contradiction in what he said... you are grasping at straws to defend your preconceived notions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 02:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point wasn't whether he was preaching against the integration of the Muslims or the Turks...

LOL. You brought it up in the first place as proof of Islam's opposition to integration, so it was very much your point... And since Erdogan was speaking out for integration and against forced assimilation, your questions don't affect the falsehood of your claims.

Regarding the forcing, I refer you to my latest diary, and again repeat that Erdogan's focus was on language use, you quoted that part yourself downthread...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 06:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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