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"they detract from true spirituality"

speaking from experience? or from the lack of it

both, like you and everyone else!

the logos came before the churches, baraka before islam. essenes before christians, yoga before hinduism. the tao before taoism.

etc.

 it seems like truth has a brief heyday between the crumbling of an old ideology and the crystallising complacency of a new one.

before populist morphs to popular, and truth slips once again into hiding.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Oct 28th, 2010 at 11:05:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The weird - or possibly not so weird - thing about organised religion is how it always, reliably, seems to become associated with top-down power structures.

We all know how anti-progressive the Catholic church has been in Europe. But I suspect far fewer people realise that Tibetan Buddhism has always acted to maintain an essentially feudal system in Tibet, or that Zen Buddhism was closely associated with Japanese imperialism and fascism for much of its history. Many Hindu gurus have interesting links to the Indian political establishment.

And so on.

When you watch new cults being formed - the ones where self-styled gurus work hard to destroy everyone's ego, except their own - you can see how the process works from the ground up.

Sure, if you're in it, it looks real and believable. It's not until you can look at it from the outside that you can see what a bad joke it is, and how the spiritual, financial and sometimes the sexual benefits seem oddly limited to a privileged inner circle.

Unfortunately good faith may not be enough. Some people have it, but it seems that many don't.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 28th, 2010 at 11:47:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed - organized religion gave us the word 'hierarchy'.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Oct 28th, 2010 at 11:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
many masochists looking for their own true love...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Oct 28th, 2010 at 09:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
okay, let me put it this way then : would you care elaborating on this? thanks

"weird how that works. religions make simple, intuitive things complicated, historically for the worst and wrongest of reasons, namely the selfsame temporal power they soapily pretend to eschew."

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Oct 28th, 2010 at 03:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
see TBG's comment about heirarchy below.

authoritarians, who are not trammelled with such time-consuming trivialities as maintaining relationships, with real, fragile, emotionally unbalanced people, (the whole motley crew of us), have much time on their hands to create mischief.

they look for new ideas in order to piggy back agendas of their own upon, thereby corrupting the original energy, and making it into an ersatz version, more easily packaged into little dogma bites for children to chew on.

i guess the most glaring example i find hardest to digest is an image of a bejewelled pope, wearing enough bling on each finger to feed a small country, lectures a crowd of shoeless latin american peasants on the need for humility, and asks for their paltry pesetas so to keep him and his silken court in the manner to which they have become accustomed for centuries.

some get to heaven before they die, on the backs of those who have to wait, nice.

i think if the martians are watching, well, it's embarrassing! we could/oughta (must?) do better than this. a religion can work 'on paper' and be completely inappropriate 'on the ground', just as any other ideology. it's the execution of these once-bright ideas that lives up to its name, and ends up suffocation-by-bureaucracy, extinguishing what it pretends to protect and enshrine.

if you think of the golden rule as centre, religions are journeys towards the periphery, (ever arcaner) riffs on that central theme.

arcane works very well for heirophants, and other pro mystifiers. we are presently entangled in semantic thickets of specialist jargon, one pole of which is local slang/dialect, followed by legalese at the government level. all social structures tend to rise and fall in this way, it seems written into the dna, from simplicity of spontaneous emergence from unexpressed embeddedness, through the birthpangs into maturity, at which point the spiritual materialists have arrived in thick (sic!) enough droves to turn truth into truthiness, game over...

and the magma searches for another crack in the crust.

game on!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Oct 28th, 2010 at 09:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re hierarchy, agendas -- you reply yourself in the second half of your post, I guess.. unfortunately it is inherent to human organizations, and the moment the church got mass dimension it was nearly automatically prone to it. I suspect many faithful are disgusted, so normal it is to expect exemplarity from spiritual guides. But then can one go ahead and draw the conclusions you do in your previous posts... I guess one can, provided it is done equitably, without rancour or some pilloring intention (which is maybe your case).

"simplicity of spontaneous emergence from unexpressed embeddedness, through the birthpangs into maturity"
quite so; man's aging evolution is rediscovered in mankind level processes. Does this make mankind old already? Do civilizations die in a way similar to a man's flame slow extinguishing?..

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Oct 29th, 2010 at 10:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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