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And according to you that's not the case?

LOL. Show me where the Catholic Bible or the King James Bible contains the Talmud of Babylon or even just these passages... or indeed show me any Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox scholar or church leader declaring the Talmud a divinely inspired holy book.

Is the Jewish God not the same as the Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant God?

I'm pretty sure that the God of Unitarians is not the same as the God of Southern Baptists or the God of the Pope; and I am also pretty certain that the God of Orthodox Jews is not the same as that of liberal ones... not that this has anything to do with the mutual acceptance of interpretations of salvation in different books of religion.

See Rabbi Goldwasser's comment about "fearing God".

See Shabbah 3a, the passages directly after the ones I quoted.

Hardly personal interpretations.

They certainly aren't interpretations universally shared by all religious people, or even all religious Jews. And based on your prior record of out-of-context misinterpretations from Erdogan to Chouraqui, even your following claim needs a [citation needed] tag:

shared by a number of scholars... Joseph Telushkin for one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Oct 17th, 2010 at 04:49:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me clarify the misunderstanding. The Talmud of Babylon is an analysis of the Old Testament. The text I quoted is an excellent summary of the values inherent to Christianity - and not less so because it was produced by Jewish scholars. These 4 questions asked by God reflect the values which are detailed at length in the 5 books of the Old Testament and The Prophets. THAT was my point regarding the Talmud of Babylon - as my question clearly inferred.
by Lynch on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 02:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
based on your prior record of out-of-context misinterpretations

Are you suggesting that my comment regarding a move towards consumerism by some Lutherans is more out of context than your raising KI as a major pillar of religion in a diary about Finnish Christians? LOL.

The objective of my post was to explain to you that the Judeo-Christian God (this diary being about Lutherans - not about Mulan and Ki) is indeed about salvation and not about killing infidels, worshiping ancestors, ghosts and the refusal of earthly desires. If these are the first 4 concepts that you bring to the table to discuss religion, then you haven't understood the first thing about it (whether you've been to Bible Study or not).

Shall I now offer you a soliloquy on your ignorant misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 13?

by Lynch on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 03:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lynch:
your ignorant misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 13

You persist in bringing to your assertions about the Bible your own personal

Lynch:

...hot dose of interpretation
 
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 04:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK big boy. If you've got a pair (a big IF) why don't you come down into the arena and explain just how I misinterpreted Deuteronomy 13, instead of doing your usual (cheap) sling shooting from a distance? Oh, and don't hesitate to use citations (that is... if you find any) to back up your assertions (that is... if you have any).
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 02:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't give a damn how you interpret Deuteronomy 13 or anything else for that matter.

Your comment is violently trollish and gets a 0.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Look around you on this thread for violently trollish and you'll find it, but not on this remark.
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nice church... the mysteries of the mass seem to be making you unusually charitable with your fellow man.

your tone is quite obnoxious, and reflects the belligerent, patronising and pseudo-sapient choice of your words.

as a self-appointed apologist for christian faith, you're digging in deeper, and revealing a petty-minded attitude that probably shepherds more towards faithlessness than otherwise. it's unfortunate, as some things you say are true, but they're surrounded by such bilious polemic and bitter hostility, anyone reading would question how much serenity and generosity of heart your faith affords you.

notably little, it appears! if you have something relevant to say about sven's diary, please say it civilly, without resorting to such diatribes. it doesn't help advance any point of view, it just pollutes discourse, dragging it down to the mucky level so many blogs wallow in, and which we have avoided pretty successfully up to now.

chill, man. if you have good to offer, let it speak for itself, without ugliness directed to others here, who are being remarkably patient and tolerant with you, imo. so mega troll rating for that comment, just horrible, ridiculous alpha posturing, testosterone squirts...

you can do better! faith surely doesn't mean low jabs like that.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 03:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to be the contrarian here. Lynch started this with an innocent, cute question and got jumped on. Cut and coule' went on much further than logic, and Lynch is piled on into a corner.

Provoked, responded. Given 0's for it. Not right. I give a 4 and a 0 for balance.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 04:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lynch:
OK big boy. If you've got a pair (a big IF) why don't you come down into the arena

If you consider this worth a 4, I'd say that's your prerogative.

But a 0 for melo's comment above is plain abuse of the rating system.

"Innocent" and "cute" is your interpretation, and a mighty strained one. Lynch has a record here, and it's much closer to provocation than innocence and cuteness.

As for "piled on", what do you want people to do? All agree with a poster, when in fact they don't? All go away and not respond to that poster? If Lynch didn't want the debate, he would neither have started it nor continued with it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 04:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To what 'ism' will these 10 000 souls convert? Paganism? Judaism? Islam(ism)? ... or just plain capitalism? Then they can go to the local mall and pray at Starbucks every sunday.

That was a good question and a cute line. I took it as a nice way to thank Sven for writing the essay. Yet immediately it was jumped on for things it didn't say. By your implication, that was justified because Lynch has some history. Then, because he followed the thread where the stream took it, you justify the piling on. (And it was piling on, not <airquote>piling on</airquote>.)

I'm not going to waste my time by digging through that thread again, but darts were thrown from each side, and the outcome that you quoted was predictable, and the responsibility of both sides - as I was reading the thread, it came out as a poorly stated mirror of what was being tossed at Lynch.

As far as abuse of the system, get off it. melo's quips were clever, as always, but in no way polite or humanitarian...again, a more puckish backatcha, overly restated several times in several ways, of the logical conclusion of where the thread was pushed to. If the system had a "Lay off guys and quite being so full of yourselves while taunting your playmate" setting, I would have used that. But there are no negative numbers.

<reverts to never reading/participating in threads dealing with non-science based philosophy>

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 05:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Yet immediately it was jumped on"

By DoDo in the opening comments? Nonsense. He attempted to get Lynch to make his meaning clear. Though, apparently, the meaning is clear to you, you'll have to accept that others didn't find it so.

More strenuous argument developed from the point where Lynch told us ex cathedra what God was going to ask of individuals on Judgement Day (complete with his interpretation of what it meant), only later giving the Talmudic source he was quoting.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 06:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't have to keep convincing me that anything can, and often is compelled to be, justified...often in inverse proportion to the amount of responsibility taken by the justifier.

I do find it surprising that you will blithely use the word "Nonsense" about my comments, even when the critique of denigrating conversation is under the microscope.

You've already pointed out that the water was colored by virtue of Lynch's history. I've already pointed out that I don't want to parse this any further, though just looking at the first handful of comments with your new insight, and one can see the player's tells a bit more clearly, it confirms that this was piling on writ large. Perhaps it is more aptly named a Lynching.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 07:00:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
siegestate:
this was piling on writ large

OK, your interpretation, stick with it as I'm sure you will. No further comment.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 09:03:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Standing ovations from me for your outstanding (excellent) observation/analysis of this internal conflict - and for having had the courage to say it out loud.
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Mon Oct 25th, 2010 at 06:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a good question and a cute line.

Am I allowed to disagree?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 01:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What you call "provocation" I call simply disagreeing with The Party Line. The Party's way of dealing with dissidents is ever so evident...
by Lynch on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 03:49:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lynch,

I share your own 'party line' by and large though I may differ on how I communicate about it.

The point is that there are people who are convinced that something that is existential to you wouldn't exist. You are one and they are many. But you have and they don't.

I don't say you are stronger because you'd be right and they wrong. Religion's underpinning is faith, and faith puts you in a spiritually strong position. You have touched existential truth.

Debates that involve existential questions are not like an argument over holidays in the mountains or at the sea being the better alternative.
It's not just facts against facts when you're rooted in a spiritual reality that others have found to be invalid, inexistent or that they've agreed to ignore.

You stand on different ground and make theirs shake. It's a pity when the Truth you've found is clouded by an intellectual cross-fire about religious facts.

Many have ceased to look for what you've found, and this makes your presence by definition annoying though it could be an invitation.
   

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Mon Oct 25th, 2010 at 06:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:o)
by Lynch on Mon Oct 25th, 2010 at 05:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
?
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 08:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:o) meant that I agree with you 100%
by Lynch on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 05:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again you are inventing your own meanings. This practice can occasionally result in poetry, but mostly gibberish.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 05:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To illustrate my point -

You had said,

"OK big boy. If you've got a pair (a big IF) why don't you come down into the arena and explain just how I misinterpreted Deuteronomy 13, instead of doing your usual (cheap) sling shooting from a distance? Oh, and don't hesitate to use citations (that is... if you find any) to back up your assertions (that is... if you have any)."

"That just proves what a closed mind you have."

That's OT rhetoric - where the heart didn't see.

It shouldn't be necessary nowadays since we as Christians have received the Holy Spirit through faith.

(I think this thread is closed; I won't take this any further.)

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 10:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You stand on different ground and make theirs shake.

How does his serial misinterpretation of the scripture of his own religion shake anyone else's ground?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 01:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I've seen, Lynch hasn't misinterpreted.

Anything else should be covered in a new diary IMO.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 02:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comedy gold.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 03:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. The comedy's on you mate.
by Lynch on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 05:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But for the record, let me rephrase my question - which was apparently misunderstood (apparently):
  • Do you know Christian Holy Scripture?
  • If you do... do you believe that it's "Evil"?
by Lynch on Tue Oct 26th, 2010 at 05:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2 simple questions Colman. Can you answer them?
by Lynch on Wed Oct 27th, 2010 at 01:26:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you siegestate.
by Lynch on Sun Oct 24th, 2010 at 03:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure that the God of Unitarians is not the same as the God of Southern Baptists or the God of the Pope; and I am also pretty certain that the God of Orthodox Jews is not the same as that of liberal ones

The Christian God is the same as the Jewish God, and if you're having any doubts - go ask a Christian priest. If you get a different answer, then you're clearly in some sort of a sect, where ghosts, jihads and voodoo may or may not play an important role.

by Lynch on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 03:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean like two different remakes of Batman describe the same fictional character?

It's always fun to watch Christian trying to reconcile the oozing, psychotic nastiness of the OT with the DFH ethic of the NT.

But really it's just story-telling. Why should anyone care - unless they think oozing, psychotic nastiness is somehow a good and worthy thing?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 04:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
oozing, psychotic nastiness of the OT with the DFH ethic of the NT.

a more tellingly succinct, psychologically apt synopsis of the current contradictions of contemporary christianity would be hard to find.

lol you should start a cult.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 03:18:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's hardly fair.  OT God and NT God are at least both figures who did god-ish stuff.

Val Kilmer Batman and George Clooney Batman just sucked.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 11:24:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Erdogan

My view of Erdogan is neither surprising, nor misinformed.  Your attitude, however, towards someone who doesn't share your point of view lacks empathy and is patently arrogant. Erdogan's speech in Germany also lacked empathy and was devoid of political tact towards the local indigenous community. But since you brought it up, perhaps you can tell me who in Germany is FORCING the Turks to assimilate and how this force is being applied?

by Lynch on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 03:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My view of Erdogan is neither surprising, nor misinformed.

Surprising, no. Misinformed, yes.

Erdogan's speech in Germany also lacked empathy and was devoid of political tact towards the local indigenous community.

We've been over that before. You still haven't told me precisely what you find objectionable about that speech.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 08:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Lynch claimed Erdogan was preaching against integration of Muslims, and never admitted that he misinterpreted a speech actually calling for the integration of Turks. Now he claims the insistence that Turks should be allowed to talk Turkish alongside German "lacked emphathy"... LOL.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 01:34:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. You misunderstood - again.
The point wasn't whether he was preaching against the integration of the Muslims or the Turks... but that he said:

"I understand very well the sensitive point of assimilation. No one can expect you to tolerate assimilation. No one can expect that you submit to assimilation. Because assimilation is a crime against humanity. You should be aware of that."

Original Spiegel article: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,534519,00.html

You then pointed out (or was it Mr. Sierra) that Erdogan was against FORCED assimilation of the Turks into German society. Hence my 2 questions:

  1. How are the Turks in Germany being FORCED to integrate?
  2. Who is it that's forcing them?
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your Spiegel reference does not back up your quote. The verbatim quote from Erdogan on assimilation in that article is:

Cologne's Turkish Spectacle: Erdogan's One-Man Show - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

"I understand that you are sensitive about the issue of assimilation," Erdogan says. "No one can demand that from you."

Where's your source for the rest?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's in the original German version. Gimme a sec and I'll look it up.
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:37:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Turkish. The Spiegel article says the speech was not to be translated into German.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:41:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now why would that be?
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Spiegel journalist says:

Cologne's Turkish Spectacle: Erdogan's One-Man Show - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Erdogan is fully aware of the tense situation. He begins his speech -- which won't be translated into German -- with flowery words.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't mean it could not be translated, obviously. But the speech was in Turkish.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.welt.de/debatte/article1660510/Das_sagte_Ministerpraesident_Erdogan_in_Koeln.html

Ich verstehe die Sensibilität, die Sie gegenüber Assimilation zeigen, sehr gut. Niemand kann von Ihnen erwarten, Assimilation zu tolerieren. Niemand kann von Ihnen erwarten, dass Sie sich einer Assimilation unterwerfen. Denn Assimilation ist ein Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit, Sie sollten sich dessen bewusst sein. Wir müssen jedoch auch Folgendes zur Kenntnis nehmen: Sie können sich im heutigen Deutschland, in Europa von heute, in der heutigen Welt, nicht mehr als ,,der Andere", als derjenige, der nur vorübergehend hier ist, betrachten, Sie dürfen sich nicht so betrachten. Die türkische Gemeinschaft hat sich volle 47 Jahre für dieses Land verausgabt. Nicht nur in Deutschland, in zahlreichen Ländern Europas nähert sich die Zahl unserer Staatsbürger fast fünf Millionen. Es ist bemerkenswert, dass trotz diesem immensen Einsatz, trotz dieser zahlenmäßigen Stärke gewisse grundlegende Probleme in diesen Ländern sich immer noch nicht auf der Tagesordnung befinden. Selbstverständlich werden unsere Kinder Türkisch lernen. Das ist Ihre Muttersprache und es ist Ihr natürlichstes Recht, Ihre Muttersprache Ihren Kindern weitergeben.
by Lynch on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 03:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In this German translation we have more, however, than your quote. Erdogan immediately goes on to say:

Dokumentation: Das sagte Ministerpräsident Erdogan in Köln - Nachrichten Debatte - WELT ONLINE

Wir müssen jedoch auch Folgendes zur Kenntnis nehmen: Sie können sich im heutigen Deutschland, in Europa von heute, in der heutigen Welt, nicht mehr als ,,der Andere", als derjenige, der nur vorübergehend hier ist, betrachten, Sie dürfen sich nicht so betrachten.

But we must also take note of the following: in today's Germany, today's Europe, today's world, you can cease to be seen as "the other", as the one who is only here temporarily, you don't have to see yourselves in that way.

It seems to me he was attempting to find the middle ground between assimilation (the abandonment of the original culture) and isolation (reflexive defence of that culture and rejection of the surrounding culture).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 04:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
find the middle ground between assimilation (the abandonment of the original culture) and isolation (reflexive defence of that culture and rejection of the surrounding culture)

Erdogan directly references ethnic communities/lobbies in America later on in the speech. His middle ground is between assimilation as obligation and isolation; the one thing that does not come up in his speech is people abandoning the original culture on their own volition.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 07:03:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is some more of the original:

Jedoch würden Sie, wenn Sie die Sprache des Landes erlernen, in dem Sie leben, oder sogar noch einige Sprachen dazu, in jeder Hinsicht davon profitieren. Schauen Sie, viele unserer Kinder hier lernen in frühem Alter keine Fremdsprachen. Diese Kinder werden mit Deutsch erst dann konfrontiert, wenn sie mit dem Schulbesuch beginnen. Und das führt dazu, dass diese Kinder im Vergleich zu den anderen Schülern die Schullaufbahn mit einem Nachteil von eins zu null beginnen müssen. Doch würde es für Sie und für Ihre Kinder in jeder Hinsicht vorteilhaft sein, wenn Sie die Möglichkeiten maximal ausschöpfen, die das hiesige gute Schulsystem Ihnen bietet.

Sie werden einen Beruf ausüben, Sie werden öffentliche Dienste in Anspruch nehmen. Wenn Sie die Sprache des jeweiligen Landes nicht beherrschen, nicht lernen, so fallen Sie unweigerlich in eine Situation der Benachteiligung.

For those not speaking German; he is telling Turks in Germany that learning the local language and maybe even another is good for them, because not learning it automatically leads to disadvantages in school -- and he advises Turks in Germany to capitalise Germany's good school system -- and later in jobs and in using public services.

He continues arguing that this is a pre-requisite for participation in public life, from voting to being elected as a politician, which he also propagates. But, heh, I wonder if you really want integration if political influence is the result...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 06:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me like he said everything and its contrary at that meeting. Pick what you want, for the audience you want.
by Lynch on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 02:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see any contradiction in what he said... you are grasping at straws to defend your preconceived notions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 02:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point wasn't whether he was preaching against the integration of the Muslims or the Turks...

LOL. You brought it up in the first place as proof of Islam's opposition to integration, so it was very much your point... And since Erdogan was speaking out for integration and against forced assimilation, your questions don't affect the falsehood of your claims.

Regarding the forcing, I refer you to my latest diary, and again repeat that Erdogan's focus was on language use, you quoted that part yourself downthread...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 06:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Chouraqui

Chouraqui is a linguist and a translator. Yes. But there is absolutely NO WAY you can endeavour to translate a book like the Bible without bringing a hot dose of interpretation with you.

by Lynch on Mon Oct 18th, 2010 at 03:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How does that excuse your misinterpretation of his words and expertise to fit your false claims about the origins of specific parts of the OT?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 19th, 2010 at 01:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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