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Big-Bang-Darwinists will never come up with an explanation for intelligence or love

Bzzzzzzt. Fail.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 02:56:38 AM EST
Against my better judgement, a serious point.

Your religion appears to amount to "We don't understand some stuff, so we made some stuff up." Fables for those too arrogant and too insecure to say "We don't know some stuff. We may not be able to know some stuff."

Seriously, "science can't come up with an explanation for intelligence or love"? Science can come up with a lot of explanations, the problem is winnowing them - it's pretty hard to do without knowing the precise historical circumstances in which either intelligence or love evolved. Note also that science is required to provide a full explanation whereas religion can just waves its hands and mumble mystical, allegorical noises

But even if we couldn't explain it, that doesn't justify the leap to imaginary sky people or etheral bodies or chakras. It would just mean out explicative powers were limited, which is hardly surprising.

Yet (weak) atheists are the arrogant ones?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 05:23:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your religion appears to amount to "We don't understand some stuff, so we made some stuff up."

Hmm. Why would things that you cannot wrap your mind around be "made up" for that reason?

Yet (weak) atheists are the arrogant ones?

"Arrogant"? I don't know. If there's "arrogance", it comes from ignorance.

You can say, that it's man's purpose to walk on the ground or learn to ride a bike but water isn't our element. So why get into it and learn to swim? You have no idea unless you try it out yourself. Not everybody becomes a deep sea diver but learning to swim could keep you from drowning.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 06:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lily:
So why get into it and learn to swim? You have no idea unless you try it out yourself. Not everybody becomes a deep sea diver but learning to swim could keep you from drowning.

excellent analogy!

sometimes meditation is like sub-aqua exploration, enabling us to go to study deeper, more obscure subconscious flora and fauna than is commonly perceived.

here beyond white whales and kraaken... the deeper, the stranger.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 06:45:54 AM EST
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"I had a weird experience, therefore God" is the epitome of arrogance: your personal experience defines the universe.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 07:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no, your personal experience informs, guides, balances and energises your universe. it's not arrogant to affirm that.

what starts off weird becomes a delight.

at first it can be extremely shocking, and self-preservation can block one from the relaxation necessary to fully grok what's happening.

...because we've been raised to be afraid of what's beyond our immediate ken.

if we take it gently, we can learn to go further from shore. what is most helpful is to refer to others who have learned to do so, as the line between mysticism and psychosis is a fine one, just as the difference between a jolly jaunt and something scarier can be small.

fortunately we have records of those who have navigated these psychic shoals, and their words and souvenirs can encourage us when life becomes too dispiriting.

bless every one of 'em!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 08:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you.

The analogy is incomplete, though.

It is crucial to check out the waters first with the means at your disposal (other people, newspaper articles, coast guard).
Is the water poisoned, are there sharks in it or are there dangerous vortexes?
And if you've never swum at all, you're well advised to take some lessons first and stay near the coastline.

To take this back to the reality we're discussing, it means to me that I rely on certain Scripture/dogmatic parameters. If I'm offered a loving and miracle-doing guru-incarnation of God, I won't go there, no matter how real the miracles and his love are. I will classify him under 'false prophet' period.

The assessment of what criteria someone wishes to rely on is mostly rational. Which is the narrative that makes sense to you, even if questions remain at the end of the day? If you find something that makes sense, it's that you consider the water trustworthy...

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 07:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right, I should learn to meditate or something.

Wait, I see a problem here.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 07:21:27 AM EST
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children meditate naturally. adults have to forget how not to.

and the whole point to meditation is to see beyond the problem, whatever it be.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 08:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, "Big-Bang-Darwinists" is fail all on its own in several ways.

First, there are no "Darwinists" left anymore. There really hasn't been since the modern synthesis in the mid-20th century.

Second, the Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution, Darwinian or otherwise. Were steady-state cosmology, or even geocentrism, to pull some startling new discovery out of a hat that overturned big bang cosmology, it would do precisely nothing to change evolutionary biology. Cosmology stopped being biologically interesting a few hundred million years before the last universal common ancestor(s).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 07:07:06 PM EST
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"Big-Bang-Darwinists" - was just a joke referring to those to whom these are all just technical, cold events in our long scientific history.

But thanks for your explanations anyway.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 07:12:13 PM EST
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The insinuation that "cold" and "technical" are somehow related is another pet peeve of mine. But I think I've elaborated on that in sufficient detail upthread.

You really are in a mood for hitting all my sore spots today ;-P

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Nov 1st, 2010 at 08:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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