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So, in warm climates, people don't have to help each other?

By the way, do you really think cold climate prevents war? So the Russo-Swedish War of 1590-1595 never happened, nor the Thirty Years' War
, nor the Russo-Swedish War of 1656-1658, nor the Little Northern War, nor the Great Northern War, nor the Russo-Swedish War of 1741-1743, nor the Finnish War, where the Russian army crossed the frozen Baltic sea into Sweden, nor the Winter War...?

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention the largest military operation ever, the invasion of the Soviet Union during WWII...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:31:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nor the other invasion, Napoleon's.

Nor the King of Denmark who "smote the sledded Polack on the ice" (Hamlet, Act 1 sc1). More use of frozen seas to allow surprise troop movements.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and we all know how those turned out and neither Germany nor France are really considered winter wonderlands.

after the Teutonic knights' fiasco with Alexander Nevsky, the people who had to live under winter conditions figured it out;  winter was the time to cocoon.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 05:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
stevesim:
neither Germany nor France are really considered winter wonderlands.

That's precisely why I didn't include these campaigns in the (not exhaustive, but long enough) list of wars between Nordic countries.

By the way, these wars kept happening for six centuries after Alexander Nevski's victory on the Lake Peipus. It looks like it took them a lot of time to figure out cocooning is better than fighting a war...  

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 03:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, I don't think so.  non-winter countries attacking winter countries because they don't understand winter ---
by stevesim on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 03:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It looks like you didn't read my comment above: the whole list is about war between "winter countries", mainly Sweden and Russia. But you are perfectly entitled to ignore history...

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet
by Melanchthon on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not about understanding, it's about preparedness. Operation Odessa (and later Stalingrad) became a disaster for Nazi Germany in the winter because it was supposed to be over in the summer. The troops were then prepared for winter in the Battle of the Bulge. There was much snow during the mountainside battles between Austria-Hungary and Italy during WWI, too. And Napoleon's greatest victory, Austerlitz, was in December. Winter was also the season for counter-attacking the Ottoman Empire, with major actions in 1443 or 1664.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm..  I did say that if winters in Europe were colder, there would have been fewer wars.

There was no way around the problems in Stalingrad with the technology of the day.  No amount of preparedness would have helped.

Diesels have problems on cold days.  Steel sticks due to frozen humiditiy, people get cold and sick, etc.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 05:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying that the Battle of the Bulge was impossible? Or the wars in Finland?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 04:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's just another version of the "civilised protestant north vs. dirty southern savages" trope.

Of all the ways of organizing banking, the worst is the one we have today — Mervyn King, 25 October 2010
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 04:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm.  I don't remember typing those words.

I get a kick out of how everyone extrapolates something different from my statement.

The Battle of the Bulge was also fought during an exceptional winter in Europe, by the bye.  The problems with the matériel underlie my point - harsh winters do not lend themselves to fighting.

Although in this case, the snow was the problem, more than the cold, as was the case in Stalingrad, which also occurred during an exceptional winter.

by stevesim on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 10:29:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the Battle of the Bulge, the well-prepared German forces attacked during a snowstorm so that they could evade airplanes, while the Allied forces were unprepared for the weather. The German attack had some other problems but really foundered once the weather turned for the better and the Allied air force could bomb them and their supply lines.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 11:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the snow was the problem, more than the cold

Snow was more the problem than cold, but temperatures during the Battle of the bulge reached -20°C, and that was combined with strong winds. Exceptionally cold for the region, not to mention for the equipment of the US Army.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 11:31:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about the Capture of the Dutch fleet by the French Navy?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 08:27:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the capture of the Dutch fleet by the French cavalry riding on the ice in den Helder in January 1795?

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet
by Melanchthon on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 03:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm was in a bit of a rush and  corrected some spelling by changing the word and not looking before I posted :D

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 09:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
just because there were some conflicts during the "winter" doesn't disprove that colder weather has and would prevent wars.
by stevesim on Thu Dec 23rd, 2010 at 05:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aren't you confusing roles there? As yet you haven't presented any evidence for your hypothesis that extended winter would prevent wars in Europe.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 04:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looking at one war that I happened to find a wikipedia list of battles on:

Second Northern War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Second Northern War (1655-1660, also First or Little Northern War) was fought between Sweden and its adversaries the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1655-1660), Russia (1656-1658), Brandenburg-Prussia (1657-1660), the Habsburg monarchy (1657-60) and Denmark-Norway (1657-1658 and 1658-1660). The Dutch Republic often intervened against Sweden.

Looking at the main month (the one the battle was in or the one that has more days if it spanned over more then one month):

Ujście - July
Danzig - 5 years siege (not really a battle)
Sobota - August
Żarnów - September
Cracow - October
Nowy Dwór - September
Wojnicz - September
Jasna Góra - December
Gołąb - February
Warka - April
Kłecko - May
1st Warsaw - June
2nd Warsaw - July
Dyneburg - July
Kokenhusen - August
Riga - September
Prostki - October
Filipów - October
Chojnice - January
March across the Belts - February
Kolding - December
Copenhagen - February
Sound - November
Nyborg - November

Or by month (siege of Danzig excluded):
January 1
February 3
March 0
April 1
May 1
June 1
July 3
August 2
September 4
October 3
November 2
December 2

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 05:41:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and if there were colder winters in Europe on a regular basis, there would not have been as many battles/wars.

in North America, for example, there were some battles fought during cold weather, but even the tribal conflicts in pre-Columbian Northern America were put on hold during the winter months.

by stevesim on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 10:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
stevesim:
in North America, for example, there were some battles fought during cold weather, but even the tribal conflicts in pre-Columbian Northern America were put on hold during the winter months.

That proves North Americans are wimps...

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 10:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it may have more to do with lack of horses (and major roads).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 11:35:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it has to do with really, really cold temperatures and unimaginable amounts of snow.
by stevesim on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 12:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes! And, conversely, as is evident, really, really hot temperatures are not in any way an impediment to fighting...
by asdf on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 02:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and if there were colder winters in Europe on a regular basis, there would not have been as many battles/wars.

You keep asserting that, without giving evidence.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 11:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and you keep on proving my point by giving lists of battles in winter, and those where the inclement weather hampered the fighting.
by stevesim on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 12:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
stevesim:
and if there were colder winters in Europe on a regular basis, there would not have been as many battles/wars.

As per the example, winter was no obstacle to fighting, so that does not really follow.

stevesim:

in North America, for example, there were some battles fought during cold weather, but even the tribal conflicts in pre-Columbian Northern America were put on hold during the winter months.

Sure, seasonal fighting exists, but winter is not all bad for fighting. Depending on terrain and technology a frozen winter can give better conditions for raids and war then a swampy summer. And seasonal pauses are unstable, because if some tribe figures out how to attack off-season they often win, and then everybody starts doing it.

Anyway, if you are going with northern Europe as part of the countries you mentioned here:

stevesim:

it's not an accident that the best countries in the world to live in, or those who experienced the most socialist or communist governments, are all in cold climes.  people have to help each other out or they will freeze to death.

Then pausing for winter stopped sometime in the 16th century, when northern Europe was a war-torn corner of continent and peasant armies still could carry the day. 17th century with professional armies was much less hindered by seasons and the Nordic countries were no exception.

The Nordic countries are today a peaceful and prosperous corner where Sweden and Denmark has long given up trying to get hegemony over the Baltics, as both countries lost to more powerful neighbours - Russia and Germany - some 150-200 years ago. But that is really no basis to argue that weather made it so.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 25th, 2010 at 03:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Melanchthon:
the Little Northern War,

During which the following happened:

March across the Belts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the middle of December the weather shifted, turning into the coldest winter in memory. The seawater between the islands froze, making a ship-borne assault impossible. Engineer Erik Dahlberg was dispatched by the king to ascertain whether the ice would support the weight of the Swedish cavalry and artillery. Dahlberg reported that a crossing over the ice was feasible.


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 05:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm.  it seems to prove that very bad winter weather prevented the typical type of war
by stevesim on Thu Dec 23rd, 2010 at 05:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and made a less typical one possible.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 04:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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