Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition | 86 comments (86 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

and we all know how those turned out and neither Germany nor France are really considered winter wonderlands.

after the Teutonic knights' fiasco with Alexander Nevsky, the people who had to live under winter conditions figured it out; winter was the time to cocoon.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 05:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 1)

stevesim:

neither Germany nor France are really considered winter wonderlands.

That's precisely why I didn't include these campaigns in the (not exhaustive, but long enough) list of wars between Nordic countries.

By the way, these wars kept happening for six centuries after Alexander Nevski's victory on the Lake Peipus. It looks like it took them a lot of time to figure out cocooning is better than fighting a war...

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 03:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

no, I don't think so. non-winter countries attacking winter countries because they don't understand winter ---

by stevesim on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 03:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

It looks like you didn't read my comment above: the whole list is about war between "winter countries", mainly Sweden and Russia. But you are perfectly entitled to ignore history...

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 1)

It's not about understanding, it's about preparedness. Operation Odessa (and later Stalingrad) became a disaster for Nazi Germany in the winter because it was supposed to be over in the summer. The troops were then prepared for winter in the Battle of the Bulge. There was much snow during the mountainside battles between Austria-Hungary and Italy during WWI, too. And Napoleon's greatest victory, Austerlitz, was in December. Winter was also the season for counter-attacking the Ottoman Empire, with major actions in 1443 or 1664.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 04:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

hmm.. I did say that if winters in Europe were colder, there would have been fewer wars.

There was no way around the problems in Stalingrad with the technology of the day. No amount of preparedness would have helped.

Diesels have problems on cold days. Steel sticks due to frozen humiditiy, people get cold and sick, etc.

by stevesim on Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 at 05:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

Are you saying that the Battle of the Bulge was impossible? Or the wars in Finland?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 04:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 1)

It's just another version of the "civilised protestant north vs. dirty southern savages" trope.

Of all the ways of organizing banking, the worst is the one we have today — Mervyn King, 25 October 2010

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 04:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

hmm. I don't remember typing those words.

I get a kick out of how everyone extrapolates something different from my statement.

The Battle of the Bulge was also fought during an exceptional winter in Europe, by the bye. The problems with the matériel underlie my point - harsh winters do not lend themselves to fighting.

Although in this case, the snow was the problem, more than the cold, as was the case in Stalingrad, which also occurred during an exceptional winter.

by stevesim on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 10:29:01 AM EST
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Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

In the Battle of the Bulge, the well-prepared German forces attacked during a snowstorm so that they could evade airplanes, while the Allied forces were unprepared for the weather. The German attack had some other problems but really foundered once the weather turned for the better and the Allied air force could bomb them and their supply lines.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 11:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition (none / 0)

the snow was the problem, more than the cold

Snow was more the problem than cold, but temperatures during the Battle of the bulge reached -20°C, and that was combined with strong winds. Exceptionally cold for the region, not to mention for the equipment of the US Army.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Dec 24th, 2010 at 11:31:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Europe is Doomed: Snowpocalypse Edition | 86 comments (86 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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