Thursday Open Thread | 62 comments (62 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

This comes as quite a surprise. As many of you know, I come from Indiana, which is at the center of what used to be the United State's auto manufacturing belt. Today there's a story in the local press about a new wind turbine plant being planned for an old transmission factory in the area. What's most surprising is the sheer size of the planned project.

A Washington, D.C.-based alternative energy company has signed a letter of intent to use an idled plant in New Castle (Indiana, US-MfM) to produce wind turbines as part of a national energy program....
Nationally, D'Arcinoff has said it could employ more than 100,000 people to manufacture, operate and service its turbines. The company also is considering locating operations in Delaware, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, New York and Ohio....
D'Arcinoff's plan counts on producing 30,000 wind turbines a year, 10 times the number produced by Denmark-based Vestas the world's largest maker of wind turbines.

I don't have enough info to know if my leg is being pulled, but the company is planning the production of 1.5 MW "shrouded" turbine units that look like this:

Also, they are apparently working with Statoil and GE on the mass production of hydrogen electrolysis units. Which if they pull off, would be a huge boon for the penetration of wind power into electricity markets.

If the 30,000 turbines figure is accurate, and the model is this 1.5 MW shrouded unit, that's 45000 MW of capacity produced annually. At a 30% generation factor (that is generation is 30% of capacity) that's 118, 260 GWH annually. Which would is 3.82% of current US annual electric generation, added annually.

I don't believe for a moment that's possible in less than a decade, but it's one hell of a target.

Have any of our windpower folks ever heard of this D'Arcinoff group, or outfits called Ecodawn, Inc. or
Transportable Power, Inc?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 11:55:56 AM EST

hmmm (none / 0)

this sounds seriously fishy, to say the least. Especially for a non-standard wind turbine technology...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 05:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

They are asking for a great deal of government money.

From what I get, they are trying to say that the shrouding will allow the limit of ~60 of kinetic power of wind captured to be brken. So basically, they can violate Bentz's law.

They aren't giving specs for the 1.5 MW model, but I think that the thinking is that the can get the same amount of power from a much smaller turbine by using this shrouding.

I really hope that this isn't a scam, because the plant that they picking up used to be union represented. Because of various laws, it looks like the new company would have to hire back all the former staff before they brought in new people. This same company is involved with another auto plant conversion in upstate New York at what used to be a transmission plant that supplied GM and Chrysler.

If this is a scam, it will kill any effort to develop the turbine supply chain in the old auto sector plants for a long time. I wish that Crazyhorse could chime in on the technical aspects of this.

The other big worry about this group is that they are privately held, and look like they are connected to the defense sector. Like the type of people who know how to game the system.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 05:27:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (4.00 / 2)

I would use a bit stronger than hmmm.

If shrouded turbines brought any advantage, they would have been made by now, studied as they've been.

If multi-bladed turbines brought any advantage to the production of electricity, they would have been commercial by now, studied as they've been.

If there's ever a period when there's lots of money floating around for windpower, and there are often such periods, shrouded multi-blade turbines appear like flies on week-old summer fruit.

For sure there will be venture funds who believe they've finally attached themselves to the next Bloom box. Though if they're willing to invest, they would certainly hire competent experts to evaluate such breakthrough designs.

Or for sure cheaper, they could read the existing literature.

PT Barnum, paging PT Barnum, white courtesy telephone please.

(Multi-bladed wind machines are really good at pumping water, it's called torque... which is why they're used that way for a millenium or longer.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 05:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 1)

And of course, i don't mean to rain on ManfromMiddletown's parade. I can only say that the Great Lakes offshore supply chain potential is far more important in revitalizing the Rust Belt industrial capabilities.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 06:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

No rain.

I'm more worried that this is going to give people the idea that building up the manufacturing base for this thing is going to be a cake walk, and then people are disappointed when it isn't.

I totally agree on offshore. The Great Lakes Wind Collaborative just had a press release that a programmatic environmental impact study was being prepped. This Southwind project for a 1,400 MW farm in Erie south of Windsor is a big deal, and it looks like there is a growing awareness that Erie has enormous potential.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 06:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

You know what might be a good place to look is the Patent Office. I had a quick scan and didn't find anything, but it's entirely possible that that's simply a function of me being unfamiliar with the site.

If, as J says, they're non-standard technology, you might find that they've filed for things.

I'm inclined to think they're up to something if it's gotten this far in the press, although probably not as big as they say.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 06:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

The more I read about these people, the more I think that these guys are associated with the defense industry. But, interestingly, they've got a former sec-treasurer of the AFL-CIO on their advisory board.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 07:42:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

I suspect most industries tied to the feds have DoD ties, and there's obviously a lot of inbreeding between the companies that do business on government contracts. Those that don't have direct ties probably have them through a customer or supplier.

It wouldn't shock me at all, especially in an area like energy, to find DoD-types.

They need skilled manufacturing labor if it's a real business, so that'd be the place to be. Having an AFL-CIO guy on the advisory board probably lends some indication that they're for real.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 07:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

Ah, this is their website?

Mostly corporate fluff. One of those "Write 'Synergy' 4,000 Times" sites. But they do mention transit, energy and defense. AFL-CIO includes the federal employees unions, so the Sec-Treas makes sense.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 08:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

I can't speak to their complicated coal-based system, but their wind technology research derives from a program at Clarkson University in Potsdam NY dedicated to multi-bladed SMALL wind turbines.

As backup they include as a source for their electricity a standard 3-bladed utility scale turbine. Or in parallel. Or whatever.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Feb 26th, 2010 at 03:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

That's them. There's a new story out today that the principal in the group has a record of hyping big projects and then the projects don't pan out.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Feb 26th, 2010 at 11:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great Lakes (none / 0)

Two weeks ago i met at a conference some of the project developers, and i was surprised at the positive progress there. Sure there are still hurdles to overcome, but the planning so far beat my estimations.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Feb 26th, 2010 at 03:24:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

I wouldn't count out ducted fan technology too eagerly. That's how all modern jet engines work, and the main shortcoming in a windmill application would seem to be the large amount of stuff that has to be steered to point into the wind. But at a site with a consistent wind direction, that might not be such a shortcoming.

My view is that it's early days for wind technology...

by asdf on Thu Feb 25th, 2010 at 10:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 1)

I wouldn't count out ducted fan technology too eagerly... jet engines... But at a site with a consistent wind direction, that might not be such a shortcoming.

I will count out ducted (shrouded) technology, partly because there are no sites with consistent wind direction. It is the wind after all. Partly because the enhancement costs too much, and brings little. Again, it's been studied to death, and proposed since forever.

Early days of wind technology? Certainly there are far more innovative steps to be taken, particularly in blade and generator technology. But i've been analyzing the technology, and discussing it with the global masters, since before i worked on the erection of my first windmill in 1776, er, 1976. Er, 1977?

PS. Other than small areas of terrain funneling, i spent 20 years working in the area of one of the strongest directional components anywhere. In the Altamont Pass in Cali we sited our turbine rows at 240 degrees for a reason, based upon the the Pacific marine layer being funneled through a gap in the coastal range. and we were still killed by yaw turbulence.

There are very solid reasons why the industry settled on 3-blades, for engineering and economic reasons. There are fringe applications for other technologies, but they will remain fringe.

But feel free to invest in this latest breakthrough.

In utility scale applications, this is a no go, as are multi-blades. There are reasons why vertical axis machines were never commercial, despite aggressive research in many lands since 1927. There are reasons why multi-blades (more than 3) have never been commercial.

In the other direction, I'm sure you're well aware that many research labs and companies have tried to commercialize two-bladed turbines, because two blades is cheaper. Even today, Nordic Wind, based upon a very successful Swedish program. But because there's a whole host of other problems, primarily from being 180 degrees opposed, they remain a niche technology.

Even 1-bladed machines were tested, being cheaper still, even including a counterweight. At those tip speeds, you can imagine the noise.

We may well have not seen some very key innovation yet, but this industry is mature for a reason.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Feb 26th, 2010 at 03:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Another Example (none / 0)

Here's more from the UK offshore research parade. the next VAWT.

If the concept has validity, build test rigs onshore now for proof of concept.

when we click through we find Nova and QinetiQ , the defense contractor for solving wind's "radar problem."

Where there is new research money, there are always "solutions." once in a while, there are even solutions.

Reminds me of the time the Department of Energy wanted to assess offshore wind, hired Westinghouse to design a then unbuilt multi-megawatt turbine, place it upon an oil rig, and come back saying it was too expensive.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Feb 26th, 2010 at 06:27:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thursday Open Thread | 62 comments (62 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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