Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
nice to be arguing theology with someone who cares about such mindstuff, even if this forum does seem a bit stretched for it.

ok, on with the fins and flippers, let's dive in...


the only thing i am certain of is there are no certainties, the only absolute is that there are no absolutes!

Your are serious when you use this paradox. You never ceased to think in absolute terms.

no Lily, you are looking only at the surface in that sentence. think it through, it's a tautology. if there are no absolute certainties, then the first part of my statement must be false.

that's why it's a self-evident paradox, i was taking the mickey!

movin' right along...


This is what you think. It is your personal opinion but what do you base your believe upon? How would you know that reincarnation IS just another mansion in the great house?

sigh, i don't know anything for certain, but i have intuitions, entirely unprovable, but why should i care? my opinion has no weight, it's just an opinion. if i sound like i think i know what i'm yapping about, it's because i don't have a macro rider attached to every statement, adding that this is possibly BS of the first water...

it's one of my favourite of Jesus' sayings, and fits here, imo. ymmv. reincarnation is intriguing, and believed in by a majority in some highly popular, ancient ways of faith. what worries me is how you seem to be clinging to a rock of certainty here, when i could ask you the same questions, as what makes you so sure. we might both be whistling in the dark, or not. i never said i considered reincarnation-belief to be crucial in any way, but it does have a tidiness to it.

i'm not attached to being right, that's why i enjoy discussing stuff.

i might seem to be dogmatic, but i ain't, at least i don't think so. i base an (uncertain) belief on what seems incrementally obvious, and i've wondered, and asked for help understanding this issue for half my life and more. i see no reason not to think it might be true, and much i find convincing enough to form a half-baked opinion about, no scientific proof.


But then, how much do you know about Creation? And why would it not jive with the short amount of time knowing them?

good questions. how much? more than some and less than others, how long is a piece of string? you want metric or avoirdupois?

why would it not jive? because it is a matter of pattern recognition.


How would we be able to judge what can be possible in time for the one who set it?

well, that's what makes me keep a bit of my mind undecided, i'm not looking for absolute certainty about anything, remember, rather the ability to contemplate flux with equanimity.


It is a Fact that You see it clearly that... ?

yes, with the usual reservations, lol.


Can God pour his compassion unto those who don't want Him?

 i dunno, but what do you think happened at Tarsus?


What are your words here based upon? What's your reference? Your own thinking? Do you believe this because You want to believe this? Why should this be true? "Reincarnation putting eternity in service to spiritual progress" - what for? What do we understand of spiritual progress - except our own, maybe?

probably close to zero... which is why i try to make my own mind up as to what i believe, according to subjective experience, the only kind of evidence i need, until proven otherwise.


But then, how would you define "humble"? Humility begins with putting God first

define god.

to me humble means scanning yourself for too much pride, and trying to be less self-important.

putting god first is fine, as long as it doesn't mean what most religious leaders have meant that phrase to mean, in other words, 'trust us and who we say god is, above your own perception'.

if your god is a complex, secretive banking system and a bunch of rituals, then i might suggest that's why the churches are in the sorry state they're in.


Who is Your God? Is He the God of compassion and not of judgment, the God of love but why is there suffering?

that's the journey's fuel, that question right there.

the journey to understanding, which maybe never will have an arrival, but is the only thing that matters, if you feel that call to understand.


May I search Him at the risk of either not finding Him or of finding disagreement with others who claim to know Him better or differently or who may deny His existence?

may i? from whom do you ask permission? do you think god gave you a brain to use, but it doesn't work without someone else's permission?

that's a belief that sounds infantile to me, and extremely vulnerable to others' abuse, i am surprised someone of your obvious intelligence would be so ready to give away your power to others in this way. history is littered with the tragedies of allowing so called 'experts' telling us when and what and why we should engage our higher faculties.

i prefer figure it out myself, with much help from reality.


IS that the "greatest sin"? according to what definition?

well in my experience it is, how does it look to you?

definition is superfluous, and too final. that's how it seems to me, again ymmv.


You have "met his spirit". How can this be possible? Jesus says he's the ONE way and there is NO OTHER. He says, he is THE DOOR. How can this spirit reign in anyone who is content in other religions? I don't deny that there are nice people everywhere but they cannot have "his spirit" in other religions.

sez you they can't, because your thinking is in a box. Jesus said he is in everyone, should they care to look. did you think the kingdom of heaven exclusive? why limit yourself here?

'don't deny' is a double negative, why not say 'i affirm' instead? then take another step and admit that you have no proof of what you say, admit its someone's speculation, and that god gave to you discrimination to form your own belief system from the evidence you find irrefutable in your life, first-hand, in the crucible of your own being, not prechewed from someone else who is not Lily. you think god made you too stupid to develop and exercise your own judgement?

 i don't.


May I search Him at the risk of either not finding Him or of finding disagreement with others who claim to know Him better or differently or who may deny His existence?

what's the problem with either some risk or some disagreement? if we were all meant to face north together and moo in harmony, life would be dull.

unless you are of the bovine persuasion... ;)


He says, he is THE DOOR.

well is he saying it now? to you? what accent does he have? is your understanding of aramaic sufficient to capture nuances?

maybe he thought it true, maybe it was then, but has since changed.


You sound like a god - in a floating multidimensional home of infinite possibilities.

god is in all of us, we are part and parcel of divine creation.

stewart brand had a quote in the first whole earth catalog: 'we are gods, we might as well get to be good at it'

we are co-creators, angels-in-training.


Is that who we are and how and where we live?

on the soul level, yes, and with infinite space and eternal timelessness to play it out.

we have limitations, sure, but without them life would have no sense, for our journey here is one of liberation, and that demands something to be liberated from.


You don't expect certainty but seem to be so sure about all our spiraling in that vortex of continual change...

i eagerly await a sounder explanation.


WHAT DO I BELIEVE? I believe that it is such a relief and such a gift that we do not have to create in our minds a God that will suit us.

well what did you get born with an imagination for then?

free will, remember, you don't have to do anything!

except maybe watch out for believing in a god that will suit unscrupulous folk to create and have you believe in.


"Those who sincerely follow the example of Jesus Christ."

well they're thick on the ground, eh? maybe there are some people with that nobility of character and spirit of self-sacrifice around, but they aren't on my radar, i wish.

perhaps those nuns at greenham common, or the liberation theology priests in s. and c. america.


No. Jesus taught exclusivity to his disciples and all of us.

bizarro world! jesus' preaching was 1000% INCLUSIVE, no-one under the bus.


Truth that is absolute is always exclusive.

dear me, how far apart our points of view are! and how categorically you state this!

truth being exclusive is the whole thrust of the catholic church, that's their DRM, totally in- and subverting and corrupting J's teachings (such as they survive).

see how Hinduism and Islam welcome Jesus, see how the C. church returns the favour, invalidating the very meaning of the word 'catholic' and turning meaning and truth on their heads in their vain and ugly efforts to 'monopolise the market'.

are we all brainwashed to want our team to be exclusive? to win the pennant? to ace the avatar contest?

very unchristian, i feel.


The ultimate power lies in this Truth

again sez you. why this wish for power? why?


not in the Catholic Church or other structures,

you got that right!


how can you reproach to God(`s Son) that he'd lack respect for `other sages'.

way to twist my words, Lily.

where do i reproach anyone but those who purport to claim exclusive rights to sell passports to heaven?

Jesus told us we all have the kingdom of heaven within us. you love Jesus, what part of that statement do you have difficulty with?

not exclusive enough? not powerful enough?

i am happy to stop boring ET with my drivel about subjects so few are interested to discuss here. there are many fora for this kind of exchange, but here we are.

maybe better to discuss offline if you still feel a need. i see we are on very different wavelengths now you have revealed some more about your beliefs, many mansions indeed.

good luck with your journey... we'll all meet in the middle.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Apr 23rd, 2010 at 06:57:07 AM EST
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