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I don't have the time or inclination to go over those arguments, which begin with the "A Clean Break" document written for Netanyahu during his first administration in 1996, by whom else, Jewish Neocons like Perle and Feith and other right wing Likudniks. Netanyahu followed that document including wining and dining the Christian Zionists, but the take out of Iraq was intimated in it. Iran came up later. It is interested that, although Wolfowitz, the architect of the Iraq invasion, was not part of the consulting group, Douglas Feith, who was second to Wolfowitz in the Defense Department, was. More than anyone else, he was responsible for fudging the intelligence against Saddam (the WMD ruse, bogus Al Quaeda connections), the stuff Bush told the nation in his yearly speech to Congress, which was repeated by Colen Powell to the UN.
As you say, Google can be a good friend. But didn't you say that you were a think tanker? You should know this stuff then better than me. There is of course the oil angle, which may have been another motive for attacking Iraq out of Cheney's office.
What I see here is a gang of American neocons sending strategy memos to an American client state, exhorting it to align itself against the American bogeyman of the day. Sort of like how the Americans periodically send memos to Japan, France and Germany about the urgent need for these countries to buy more (preferably American-made) war toys. The US also likes to tell Europe that we should be afraid of Russia. Is that because they want to help us fight Russia, or is it because they want us to help them fight Russia?
When the Americans send such memos to Japan or Europe, they are usually deposited in the circular file without further concern or discussion. Unless the Americans are lucky enough to hit upon a crazy nut like Kaczynski or Binny Yahoo (or a poodle like Bliar).
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
Personally, I would have to go with thinkers like Harvard professor Walt, who has specialized in the US-Israel relationship, co-author of "the Israel Lobby."
Names like Perle, Wolfowitz, and Feith seem to have little resonance here, as well as the other twenty or so ;ess known proIsrael Zionists situated in the Defense Department during the Bush administration.
As I said, I don't have the time or inclination. If you choose to contradict my point, then I would say that it is up to you, a think tanker, to supply the basis for your argument against what is an old hat evidentiary understanding here in the US.
Otherwise, just drop it.
Maintaining US support for Israel's policies against the Palestinians is essential as far as the Lobby is concerned, but its ambitions do not stop there. It also wants America to help Israel remain the dominant regional power. The Israeli government and pro-Israel groups in the United States have worked together to shape the administration's policy towards Iraq, Syria and Iran, as well as its grand scheme for reordering the Middle East. Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the `real threat' from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The `unstated threat' was the `threat against Israel', Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. `The American government,' he added, `doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.' On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that `Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein.' By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached `unprecedented dimensions', and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq's WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, `Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq's non-conventional capabilities.' Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. `The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,' Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. `Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.' At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that `the greatest risk now lies in inaction.' His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: `The Case for Toppling Saddam'. `Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,' he declared. `I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam's regime.' Or as Ha'aretz reported in February 2003, `the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.' As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel's leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, `Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.' In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel's behalf. Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby's major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. `As President Bush attempted to sell the ... war in Iraq,' the Forward reported, `America's most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.' The editorial goes on to say that `concern for Israel's safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.' Although neo-conservatives and other Lobby leaders were eager to invade Iraq, the broader American Jewish community was not. Just after the war started, Samuel Freedman reported that `a compilation of nationwide opinion polls by the Pew Research Center shows that Jews are less supportive of the Iraq war than the population at large, 52 per cent to 62 per cent.' Clearly, it would be wrong to blame the war in Iraq on `Jewish influence'. Rather, it was due in large part to the Lobby's influence, especially that of the neo-conservatives within it. The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president. They caused a stir early in 1998 by publishing two open letters to Clinton, calling for Saddam's removal from power. The signatories, many of whom had close ties to pro-Israel groups like JINSA or WINEP, and who included Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Bernard Lewis, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, had little trouble persuading the Clinton administration to adopt the general goal of ousting Saddam. But they were unable to sell a war to achieve that objective. They were no more able to generate enthusiasm for invading Iraq in the early months of the Bush administration. They needed help to achieve their aim. That help arrived with 9/11. Specifically, the events of that day led Bush and Cheney to reverse course and become strong proponents of a preventive war. At a key meeting with Bush at Camp David on 15 September, Wolfowitz advocated attacking Iraq before Afghanistan, even though there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the US and bin Laden was known to be in Afghanistan. Bush rejected his advice and chose to go after Afghanistan instead, but war with Iraq was now regarded as a serious possibility and on 21 November the president charged military planners with developing concrete plans for an invasion. Other neo-conservatives were meanwhile at work in the corridors of power. We don't have the full story yet, but scholars like Bernard Lewis of Princeton and Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins reportedly played important roles in persuading Cheney that war was the best option, though neo-conservatives on his staff - Eric Edelman, John Hannah and Scooter Libby, Cheney's chief of staff and one of the most powerful individuals in the administration - also played their part. By early 2002 Cheney had persuaded Bush; and with Bush and Cheney on board, war was inevitable. Outside the administration, neo-conservative pundits lost no time in making the case that invading Iraq was essential to winning the war on terrorism. Their efforts were designed partly to keep up the pressure on Bush, and partly to overcome opposition to the war inside and outside the government. On 20 September, a group of prominent neo-conservatives and their allies published another open letter: `Even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack,' it read, `any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.' The letter also reminded Bush that `Israel has been and remains America's staunchest ally against international terrorism.' In the 1 October issue of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan and William Kristol called for regime change in Iraq as soon as the Taliban was defeated. That same day, Charles Krauthammer argued in the Washington Post that after the US was done with Afghanistan, Syria should be next, followed by Iran and Iraq: `The war on terrorism will conclude in Baghdad,' when we finish off `the most dangerous terrorist regime in the world'. This was the beginning of an unrelenting public relations campaign to win support for an invasion of Iraq, a crucial part of which was the manipulation of intelligence in such a way as to make it seem as if Saddam posed an imminent threat. For example, Libby pressured CIA analysts to find evidence supporting the case for war and helped prepare Colin Powell's now discredited briefing to the UN Security Council. Within the Pentagon, the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group was charged with finding links between al-Qaida and Iraq that the intelligence community had supposedly missed. Its two key members were David Wurmser, a hard-core neo-conservative, and Michael Maloof, a Lebanese-American with close ties to Perle. Another Pentagon group, the so-called Office of Special Plans, was given the task of uncovering evidence that could be used to sell the war. It was headed by Abram Shulsky, a neo-conservative with long-standing ties to Wolfowitz, and its ranks included recruits from pro-Israel think tanks. Both these organisations were created after 9/11 and reported directly to Douglas Feith.
Maintaining US support for Israel's policies against the Palestinians is essential as far as the Lobby is concerned, but its ambitions do not stop there. It also wants America to help Israel remain the dominant regional power. The Israeli government and pro-Israel groups in the United States have worked together to shape the administration's policy towards Iraq, Syria and Iran, as well as its grand scheme for reordering the Middle East.
Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the `real threat' from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The `unstated threat' was the `threat against Israel', Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. `The American government,' he added, `doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.'
On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that `Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein.' By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached `unprecedented dimensions', and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq's WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, `Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq's non-conventional capabilities.'
Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. `The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,' Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. `Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.'
At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that `the greatest risk now lies in inaction.' His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: `The Case for Toppling Saddam'. `Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,' he declared. `I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam's regime.' Or as Ha'aretz reported in February 2003, `the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.'
As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel's leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, `Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.' In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel's behalf.
Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby's major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. `As President Bush attempted to sell the ... war in Iraq,' the Forward reported, `America's most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.' The editorial goes on to say that `concern for Israel's safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.'
Although neo-conservatives and other Lobby leaders were eager to invade Iraq, the broader American Jewish community was not. Just after the war started, Samuel Freedman reported that `a compilation of nationwide opinion polls by the Pew Research Center shows that Jews are less supportive of the Iraq war than the population at large, 52 per cent to 62 per cent.' Clearly, it would be wrong to blame the war in Iraq on `Jewish influence'. Rather, it was due in large part to the Lobby's influence, especially that of the neo-conservatives within it.
The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president. They caused a stir early in 1998 by publishing two open letters to Clinton, calling for Saddam's removal from power. The signatories, many of whom had close ties to pro-Israel groups like JINSA or WINEP, and who included Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Bernard Lewis, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, had little trouble persuading the Clinton administration to adopt the general goal of ousting Saddam. But they were unable to sell a war to achieve that objective. They were no more able to generate enthusiasm for invading Iraq in the early months of the Bush administration. They needed help to achieve their aim. That help arrived with 9/11. Specifically, the events of that day led Bush and Cheney to reverse course and become strong proponents of a preventive war.
At a key meeting with Bush at Camp David on 15 September, Wolfowitz advocated attacking Iraq before Afghanistan, even though there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the US and bin Laden was known to be in Afghanistan. Bush rejected his advice and chose to go after Afghanistan instead, but war with Iraq was now regarded as a serious possibility and on 21 November the president charged military planners with developing concrete plans for an invasion.
Other neo-conservatives were meanwhile at work in the corridors of power. We don't have the full story yet, but scholars like Bernard Lewis of Princeton and Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins reportedly played important roles in persuading Cheney that war was the best option, though neo-conservatives on his staff - Eric Edelman, John Hannah and Scooter Libby, Cheney's chief of staff and one of the most powerful individuals in the administration - also played their part. By early 2002 Cheney had persuaded Bush; and with Bush and Cheney on board, war was inevitable.
Outside the administration, neo-conservative pundits lost no time in making the case that invading Iraq was essential to winning the war on terrorism. Their efforts were designed partly to keep up the pressure on Bush, and partly to overcome opposition to the war inside and outside the government. On 20 September, a group of prominent neo-conservatives and their allies published another open letter: `Even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack,' it read, `any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.' The letter also reminded Bush that `Israel has been and remains America's staunchest ally against international terrorism.' In the 1 October issue of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan and William Kristol called for regime change in Iraq as soon as the Taliban was defeated. That same day, Charles Krauthammer argued in the Washington Post that after the US was done with Afghanistan, Syria should be next, followed by Iran and Iraq: `The war on terrorism will conclude in Baghdad,' when we finish off `the most dangerous terrorist regime in the world'.
This was the beginning of an unrelenting public relations campaign to win support for an invasion of Iraq, a crucial part of which was the manipulation of intelligence in such a way as to make it seem as if Saddam posed an imminent threat. For example, Libby pressured CIA analysts to find evidence supporting the case for war and helped prepare Colin Powell's now discredited briefing to the UN Security Council. Within the Pentagon, the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group was charged with finding links between al-Qaida and Iraq that the intelligence community had supposedly missed. Its two key members were David Wurmser, a hard-core neo-conservative, and Michael Maloof, a Lebanese-American with close ties to Perle. Another Pentagon group, the so-called Office of Special Plans, was given the task of uncovering evidence that could be used to sell the war. It was headed by Abram Shulsky, a neo-conservative with long-standing ties to Wolfowitz, and its ranks included recruits from pro-Israel think tanks. Both these organisations were created after 9/11 and reported directly to Douglas Feith.
As just one source, read the rest for yourself here:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby
Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical.
You might want to look for a better quote. One that supports your case than addressing the concerns of bat-shit crazy Israeli nationalists was a necessary and sufficient condition for the invasion of Iraq. My guess is that there are maybe half a dozen critical reasons for the invasion, of which this is one.
"there are maybe half a dozen critical reasons for the invasion, of which this is one."
I was cited for not producing links to evidence. Where's yours on this statement. I think some of you guys just pull things out of your asses, and then present them as viable arguments. Not quite think tank calibre stuff. Personally, I will take Walt and Merschirmer, who specialize in the area.
I think some of you guys just pull things out of your asses, and then present them as viable arguments.
do you just come here to practice rudeness?
don't you realise you'd be welcome here if you changed your tone to one less aggressively polemic?
i am glad you haven't been banned, but you keep adding to the communication problem, rather than easing up and supporting the site, and its play rules. if others are less than perfectly courteous to you, why not set an example in return?
could be a big return on a small investment... right now you're begging to be banned, just to prove something, seemingly.
chill out, you'll have more fun...
what's the payoff? you write well, about important issues, but why the prickliness? it's so unnecessary! 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
shame... 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
You are a fool. Piss off and stop lecturing us. Thanks.
That to the point enough for you?
i am glad you haven't been banned
i think it's much more interesting to keep the inclusiveness, and create a civil space.
cussing has absolutely nothing to do with it. 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
Your argument in the diary was that the neocon project was primarily about furthering Israel's Likud's interests. Your argument in this subthread was that the attack on Iraq was primarily about furthering Israel's Likud's interests.
Nobody doubts that the neocons are, at the moment, strong supporters of the Israeli far-right (whether the attack on Iraq furthered Israeli interests, or even Israeli far-right interests, is more debatable). What remains to be adequately argued is that this support is central to the neocon project. In other words, everybody agrees that there is wagging going on, but who's the tail and who's the dog?
One way to shed some light on the matter would be to go through some of the major flip-flops of American, neocon and/or Israeli foreign policy over the last couple of decades. Then one could investigate whether the three actors flipped at the same time, or one or two of them maintained an independent line.
If two actors did flip at the same time, one would have to check whether there were plausible reasons for their objective interests to change in concert. If there were no such commonality of interests, one could conclude that the actor that changed against its best interests was being influenced by the other actor. If there turned out to be a commonality of interests, one could still infer something about the relationship from the timing - the leading actor is more likely to be the originator of the change than the lagging actor.
For example, in the 1980's, back when quite a lot of the neocons were involved in the Raygun/Bush the Elder administration, Saddam Hussein and the neocons were best buddies. This changed around the early 1990's. There's a couple of plausible reasons for why the American and/or neocon stance on Iraq would change (the collapse of the Soviet Union reduced Iranian power, which in turn reduced the need for a countervailing influence; Iraq lost their war against Iran, reducing their value both as a client state and as a countervailing force; the US needed a third-world country to throw up against the wall to demonstrate that they were the only show in the post-Soviet town, and the air defences around Damaskus were too good).
Was Israel hostile to Iraq in the 1980's?
If so, that would be a strike against the argument put forth in your diary: When, in the 1980's, the neocons were given the choice between supporting their vision for the US and supporting Israeli policy, they chose the US.
If not, when did Israel change its stance vis-a-vis Iraq? If they did so before the neocons, and the neocons changed stance before the US, one might reasonably infer that the policy change was being promoted by Israel through the neocons. If, OTOH, the neocons became hostile to Iraq before the US and Israel became hostile to Iraq after the US did, it would indicate that the neocons influenced American policy, and Israel followed American policy. Finally, if the US turned against Iraq before both Israel and the neocons, it would indicate that both Israel and the neocons are in the tail, and some other faction or factions are in the dog.
That's an empirical question. I don't know enough to answer it right now, but it should be possible to answer.
You're the one making an assertion that, on the face of it, appears to be highly improbable. You need to either provide compelling evidence or at the very least provide a reasonably detailed description of where it can be found. The American conventional wisdom isn't evidence - the American conventional wisdom used to be that they'd greet us with flowers and that housing prices can only go up...
On the other hand, it my understand that this conflict has been debated here to death. How could that be the case without understand the ways in which Israel infouences the US Congress and White House. Best lobby in town, even better than the National Rifle Association.
I'm arguing that the relationship is a little more complicated than "Israel is running American foreign policy through teh AIPAC."
I'm not certain what complications you might be referring to, apart from oil and the false notion that Israel provides a base of operations for Americab Middle East diplomacy, Israeli lobbyists have made certain that US politicians follow the Israeli line, whatever it may be. You need only appreciate the response in Congress to the Mavi Marmara incident, where even VP Biden repeated the usual hogwash, that "Israel has a right to defend itself."
I'm not certain what complications you might be referring to,
Lessee...
And that's just the realpolitik. When you add the naked racism (Israelis are generally whiter than the surrounding people) and the fact that support for Palestine is a left-wing narrative, supporting Israel fits the neocon agenda like stupid fits a Creationist.
1.No disagreement.
2.Except Egypt, Jordan, Canada, Britain, and so on.
3.Except that since 1967, 1973, all they have attacked are civilian populations in Lebanon and Gaza, 2006, 2008, West Bank 2000.
4. Mosaad competent? Take the last hit alone. We don't do assassinations. Intelligence, no argument after the Iraq war debacle.
5.Not at least since Obama, although AIPAC has had him running backtracking for a while.
6.Not since Obama. The Neocons have always been Israel centric as Walt argues.
Otherwise, you will have to provide references to this friendliness, and just what that meant. I think that it was in 1982, that Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in progress.
Otherwise, you will have to provide references to this friendliness, and just what that meant.
In the '80s, the neocons were selling chemical weapons to Iraq. The same chemical weapons that were later used against Kurds and Shias, and, ironically, were dragged out as casus belli in 2003 (nevermind that such stuff has a shelf life...).
That friendly enough for you?
I think that it was in 1982, that Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in progress.
Well, that was sort of my point. Iraq was on Israel's shit list throughout, but it wasn't on the neocons' shit list until the balance of American geostrategic interests shifted against Iraq.
Which points to the conclusion that the neocons are primarily American nationalists, and that their support for Israel is a consequence of their broader ideology, rather than a driving force in it.
I can only guess that the Neocons chose to support the lesser of two evils in this time period, but certainly Saddam had no use for Israel even then. But who cares. He was being used to attain American foreign policy goals, and the takedown of Iran was one, supported by Israel.
Still, I just don't believe that Walt's thesis can be so simply contradicted. It is almost impossible to name a prominent Neocon who is not a strong Israelophile and whose positions are not supportive of Israel in every way, or should I say, the right wing way. Neocons are Likudniks, pure and simple, from Perle on down, as evident in A Clean Break.
I can only guess that the Neocons chose to support the lesser of two evils in this time period,
Um, no. Empires don't do "lesser of two evils." They do "out son-of-a-bitch."
It is almost impossible to name a prominent Neocon who is not a strong Israelophile
What do you base that on? What they say for public consumption?
Neocons are Likudniks, pure and simple, from Perle on down, as evident in A Clean Break.
You keep referring to that paper, but I still don't think it says what you think it says. I've seen substantially the same sort of garbage pushed to Europeans (if you swap out Iraq and Jordan with Russia and Ukraine), and it's quite obvious that the neocons are not Europhiles.
Again, just what Neocon(s) sold chemical weapons to the Iraqis in the 1980s?
Five years before Saddam Hussein's now infamous 1988 gassing of the Kurds, a key meeting took place in Baghdad that would play a significant role in forging close ties between Saddam Hussein and Washington. It happened at a time when Saddam was first alleged to have used chemical weapons. The meeting in late December 1983 paved the way for an official restoration of relations between Iraq and the US, which had been severed since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. With the Iran-Iraq war escalating, President Ronald Reagan dispatched his Middle East envoy, a former secretary of defense, to Baghdad with a hand-written letter to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and a message that Washington was willing at any moment to resume diplomatic relations. That envoy was Donald Rumsfeld.
With the Iran-Iraq war escalating, President Ronald Reagan dispatched his Middle East envoy, a former secretary of defense, to Baghdad with a hand-written letter to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and a message that Washington was willing at any moment to resume diplomatic relations.
That envoy was Donald Rumsfeld.
Clearly the attempt to use Saddam against Iran was not an attempt, obviously, to democratize Iraq, but it might have been to weaken or take down the anti-American Iranian theocracy.
Rumsfeld's role with Saddam was simply an implementarion of US foreign policy at the time in confronting to Iran.
Certainly in the Bush administration, it is safe to say that Rumsfeld as well as Cheney took on neuconservatism trappings, after 9/11 especially or specifically,
You will want to stop digging now...
The neocons have existed in roughly their current configuration since the late '70s/early '80s, with essentially unchanged ideological priorities.
but to associate his nonpolicy work during the Reagan administration as neoconservative in retrospect is inaccurate. Rumsfeld was just not a policy maker at that time.
I suppose it's possible to imagine that the second-in-command of the American war department does not play any major role in shaping American foreign policy. Stranger things have happened - after all, you just had two presidents in a row who didn't seem to play any major role in shaping American foreign policy...
But it really is a case that you need to make in slightly greater detail than by off-hand assertion.
Clearly the attempt to use Saddam against Iran was not an attempt, obviously, to democratize Iraq,
Well, duh.
Why is that relevant, again? The neocons have never, outside certain parts of their agit-prop, had any concern what so ever for democracy.
And no, Reagan was not courting Saddam in the attempt to democratize Iraq, which is a duh, in anyone's book. And if you don't know why that is relevant, you don't understand the Neocons, and their foreign policy project, or why they hit on Iraq years later (even though it was done for Israel's sake).
And finally, who the hell ever said that Neoconservatism developed with the Bush administration? And no, there is no credible evidence that Rumsfeld was a neocon in the 70s or 80s, and no, there was no Neocon angle to the Iraq-Iran war such that the neocons gave Saddam chemical weapons. You made that up yourself, me thinks, because Rumsfeld took a Neoconservative course in the Defense Department. Once a Neocon, you had to be one forever, right?
Is this the think tank you were talking about?
And no, Reagan was not courting Saddam in the attempt to democratize Iraq, which is a duh, in anyone's book. And if you don't know why that is relevant, you don't understand the Neocons, and their foreign policy project,
No, you don't understand what the neocon project is about.
It's not about "promoting democracy." It's not about "freedom." It's certainly not about "winning the war on terror." And it's not about Israel. Those are just advertising slogans, and have nothing to do with their policy prescriptions. Most of these guys got their political schooling under Nixon and have, in fact, been quite consistent in their policies and objectives ever since: To put the executive and economic power of the United States under their clique's control (remember the "permanent majority" and "unitary executive?") and use it to advance their own wealth and act out their fantasies of control and dominance.
If saying "we're promoting democracy" is what makes the rubes buy their scam, then they'll say that they're spreading democracy. If claiming that they're defending Israel is what will make the Millenialist fundagelicals rally to their flag, then they support Israel. If fighting the wrr on trr is what will make the FOX News watching mouthbreather demographic rally behind them, then they're fighting the wrr on trr.
But you shouldn't for a single moment believe that they're sincere about any of that. If supporting Israel were to become a net liability to their quest for power, they would fuck over Israel just as fast as they fucked over Saddam.
I don't know what the Neocons are all about. Walt's thesis that the Neocons are Israel-centric is false because a Neocon gave chemical weapons to the Iraqis in the 80s.
Case closed.
Does membership in the neoconservative think tank count?
Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based in Washington, D.C. that lasted from early 1997 to 2006.
Besides, the entire neocon cabal's modus operandi stinks of the political schooling they received during their time in the Nixon administration - only this time they're remembering to burn the tapes.
Take my advise: give it up. The Neocons did not have any real effect on US foreign policy until 9/11. In fact, the Wolfowitz Iraq invasion plan was already out there in the early 90s, when he attempted to get Clinton to do the dirty work. Clinton allegedly threw it in the wastebasket. It is not that Neocons were not embedded yet, but they just had no effect on American foreign policy, yet.
And no, the Neocons did not supply Saddam with chemical weapons, and no, Walt is not wrong because of that preposterous notion. As I mentioned before, Iraq was just being used by the US to counter Iran.
So let's stop beating a dead horse, shall we?
I just don't see the evidence - and no, Walt isn't evidence; he just asserts that this is the case and proceeds to take it as read in his political analysis. Which, for the purposes of discussing Israeli policy is not necessarily wrong - from the perspective of Israel and the Palestinians it doesn't matter why the neocons currently support Israel, just that they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. But you made a stronger claim than Walt does, so you need to provide comparatively stronger evidence.
Walt also notes the fakery about the Neocon project to spread democracy by whatever means, especially American military power, because of their current attacks on Turkey, a secular demoracy and member of NATO, in fact.
I support Walt's view over your because he is a Middle East expert and highly learned, and I know a lot of his references and sources, over your own view. It is pretty weak if not trivial to bring up some notion about a Neocon giving Saddam chemical weapons, in counterarguing his view.
But this give and take has gone on long enough.
My assertion did not exceed Walt's. You only have to survey the prominent Neocons to understand that they are more than supportive of Israel.
But that's not what you were arguing. You were arguing that:
They are Likudniks and that would include both the Jewish and nonJewish Neocons, the latter including Woosley and John Bolton, AIPAC's favorite standby.
In other words, you were claiming that they support Israel and derive the rest of their agenda from that support. Which is bullshit - they have an agenda, and supporting Israel furthers that agenda at the moment.
I support Walt's view over your because he is a Middle East expert and highly learned,
In other words, you're making an argument from authority because you don't have the ability or inclination to make an argument on its merits.
and I know a lot of his references and sources,
Then you need to start sharing them, so the reader can judge for himself. Because the writeups you've linked to so far are exceptionally weak as far as supporting your point goes.
So shall we just quit this give and take and agree that we have a disagreement.
And I'm saying that you're relying excessively on a single reference with the associated risk of devolving into argument from authority.
But it is you that have chosen to contradict Walt's thesis, and you have done so on the basis of the most trivial nonfact, that a Neocon gave Saddam, a nemesis of Israel, chemical weapons. Can it be said that your skepticism is based on a purely isolated event about which you made a false assumption. Why would a Neocon help Saddam if he were Israel-centric, was the conclusion we were to draw, and that was the evidence you provided to contradict Walt.
Weak tea, but since I have neither the time nor inclination to carry this on any further, as I said above, let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
But it is you that have chosen to contradict Walt's thesis, and you have done so on the basis of the most trivial nonfact, that a Neocon gave Saddam, a nemesis of Israel, chemical weapons.
No, that would be not what I based my scepticism on. I base my scepticism on the fact that the neocons have a long history as a coherent group, a history that goes back to the Nixon administration, in which the bulk of the core actors received their political schooling. And that they have a well-defined domestic policy agenda to which Israel by all appearances is entirely incidental.
They are using Israel to further their purposes, not the other way around.
For a thorough discussion of several of the main figures, you can do worse than Dubose and Bernstein's Vice: Dick Cheney and the Hijacking of the American Presidency, which goes over Cheney's career and, in that process, touches upon most of the core neoconservative figures.
Or you could look into what the people who actually study the neoconservative faction have to say about their motives and agenda. With all due respect to the in-depth knowledge of your totemic authorities about US-Israel relations and the politics of the Near East, if you want to understand the internal power politics of the Beltway, you need to read people who study the Beltway, not people who study how the Beltway deals with a single, fairly minor, policy item.
Can it be said that your skepticism is based on a purely isolated event about which you made a false assumption.
It could be said. It would be wrong, but it could be said. It's a free country, after all.
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that the neoconservatives are a new thing that came into power with Bush the Lesser. I have no idea what gave you that idea, apart from neoconservative agit-prop, but these guys aren't a new and exciting development. They're the Nixon administration in drag.
I don't know what YOU that idea from reading my posts. The history of the Neoconservative movement is well known to everyone and to say that 9/11 put it into practice, was never to suggest that it just started with the Bush administration. Silly notion. But that everyone who is a Neocon was or had to be a Neocon before or during the 1970s is fallacious.
The relationship between Iraq and Israel has been a challenging one since 1948, when Iraq declared war on the newly established Jewish state, since then relations between the two states have remained hostile at best. Iraqi forces took part in action against Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973, as well as firing dozens of Scud ballistic missiles at Israel during the 1991 Persian Gulf War (despite Israel not being involved in that war). Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak in 1981.
Iraq was best buddies of the US against Iran between the 1979 Tehran embassy hostage-taking until some time before the 1991 gulf war, while Israel and Iraq were on each other's shit lists throughout. By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
Since 1948, Israel and Iraq have been implacable foes. Technically, Baghdad has been in a continuous state of war with Israel since 1948.[3] It sent armies to fight Israel in 1948 and 1967, and to back up Syria's defence of Damascus in the October 1973 war. Unlike Egypt, Jordan or Syria, Iraq has never been willing to discuss an armistice with Israel, let alone a peace accord like those Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan-despite some wishful mediation attempts by the United States and other Western countries with business interests in Iraq during Saddam Hussein's presidency.
Clearly, the neocon-Israel relationship cannot be described as a simple client/suzerain relationship, since they held divergent opinions on a subject that was sort of important to both of them at the time.
Of course one should be careful about extrapolating from single data points, but it is a strike against the diarist's hypothesis.
It's all very strategic, I suppose.
Gulf Woar 2, This Time We Mean It™ was simply about pork barrels and oil, with a bit of bone marrow for the mad dogs in the Likud.
But the pork barrels and Woar Death Glory were more than enough to justify Iraq on their own - at least to the impotent old fascists who were running the operation.
If Saddam had been in any danger of developing nukes, Israel would naturally have been a prime target - eventually. But that was never imminent or even particularly likely.
Iran, of course, is a different issue. Iran cannot possibly be allowed to have nukes, because Tel Aviv really would be a possible target.
But that's proliferation for you.
Nukes are deterrants and they will never be anything more than that. But of course Iran is a Muslim country and we know all about Muslims. They're all terrorists at heart.
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