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No one slandered 'this place' and that is a total mischaracterization of what transpired. Oui and I were reacting to the incessant, unrelenting criticism and the ad hominums and insults that JakeS began engaging in.

In short, a few members hijacked the diary, one which on the rec list, and continued to rant about 'meta' issues through 55 comments, one even implying that it should not be on the rec list, but buried out of sight in Salon comments.

Let's just leave it there.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Once again, you deleted, which is an act of vandalism. Once you have posted, your diary and the comment thread are not your property to dispose of.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a small point of PNing. I think diaries belong to the people who post them, but the comments don't. However the comments are not understandable without the context of the diary. Tricky one. But you are right.

Personally, I have found Shergalds' LQD's to be, occasionally, useful as a counterbalance to lamestream.  However, I also agree that many of them would be items better placed in the Salon - or summarised in a weekly diary with insight.

The problem is, perhaps, one of the profile of ET. There is a central ET political thrust, but that thrust is possibly only useful if tempered by wider subjects. Too many of the wider subjects appearing on the splash page do affect the perceived profile of the forum to the casual visitor. (Although we still haven't established what is the use of casual visitors)

I would hope that people like Shergald can continue to post, as long as we all understand that what we should desire more than anything here is insight - micro or macro. This is a community, not a bulletin board.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:20:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, that's the phrase

This is a community, not a bulletin board.


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that thread shergald demonstrated in spades he's not made an effort to be part of the community in the over 2 years he's been using the site as a bulletin board to pin his diaries on.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has borderjumpers been banned yet?

I wrote elsewhere on my views of the notion of a "community" on a political blog. It's somewhere between the insults and the quotations of official policy.

In short, it said....look it up.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny you should bring up borderjumpers.

They have at least three redeeming qualities that your contributions lack:

  1. They write the stuff themselves.

  2. They bring actual expertise to the table.

  3. They cover material (rural development and sub-Saharan Africa) that is otherwise under-represented on European Tribune. No sane and sober analyst could claim that Palestine would be under-represented on ET without your spamming.

Are you done with the tu quoque fallacies now?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you keep talking about banning? Hardly anyone has ever been banned from ET. I think it amounts to three people, one for cyberstalking and sockpuppetting, one for spamming by repeatedly posting the same content-less comments and sockpuppetting, and maybe one more for being a total asshole though I think they left on their own.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 02:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry Helen, but I must disagree.

The notion of a "community" on a blog is a seriously flawed idea. It would eventually lead to a conformance of minds, a restriction of opinion (let's not offend), and a rejection of recalcitrant thinking. A group-think psychology is the last thing one needs on a political blog where debate should be unfettered.

Besides, I would suggest that out of the 2,000 daily visitors to ET (last site meter reading I saw), only a handful of members would seem to want to use ET as their community. I suggest that if people are lonely that they get out and knock on their neighbor's door and invite them over.

I just saw one effect of the "community." Members of this so-called ET community got together and formed a diary police force, and their attitude was that they owned the place, and could make quality rules about what is or is not acceptable to them (here), while the remainder of the 2,000 had nothing to say.

So count me out of your community, those few of you who seem to need it.


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but we are a community.. of sorts. Not necessarily of like minds, I agree with your dismissal of this as a source of restricted opinion, but certainly of fairly open minds (which may seem a strange thing to say in the midst of the current shit-storm).

As Stephen Colbert once acidly stated, "truth has a liberal bias" and certainly the willingness to test our prejudices against analysed reality is one of the hallmarks of people here. Carl Sagan once said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and the bullshit meter here is set to stun. Sure, yea, it gets annoying when you're required to back things up when you shoot your mouth off glibly, as I've been prone to do on far too many occasions. But it means that you can trust the information and analysis on this site in a way few others can boast.

Sure we tend to like mind on some things, after all if I was a teabagger or a freeper I'd be going elsewhere. But my prejudices get challenged too. There is a community here, one of attitude.

It's a shame that right wingers don't visit often, that we can't have a decent discussion with people with whom we genuinely disagree. So long as we respect the other's integrity there's really no reason why we can't, but frankly the intellectual firepower on display here is pretty intimidating even when you agree with their views. I've seen right wingers worn down here until they don't return but that's not something to celebrate as we lose the ability to have our assumptions tested as well. It's just that if you wanna really take issue with some of the guys here, you really need to know what you're talking about and few can make that grade.

So I stand by the fact that we're a community but not, as you suggest, a commonnality.

We welcome your input, but we've probably had more of what you actually think in this thread than across all the diaries you've posted. and that's a shame because somebody as passionate as you are has a lot to contribute if only you realised it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 05:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. And it is the sense of community that motivates the production of so much good content here. Without it, ET would be run-of-the-mill.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, I appreciate your views, but I disagree with them. There is a small group of members here who relate to each other in a manner of familiarity, who like to be considered a community. But the overwhelming majority of the 2,000 daily visitors and diarists, I might add, who come here do not necessarily share the feelings that they are part of a community. IMO, it is just a group of "old timers" who frequent ET daily, and get to know one another, that share this idea.

Since I joined ET two years ago, I watched the site visitor counter go from one thousand to two thousand. Of course that was entirely due to the start of my posting here, if you believe in spurious correlation. But it was certainly not due to some kind of "quality" notion, but rather the information visitors get from the site, and possibily Jerome's past association with DKos, where he attained some following. But one thing is for certain: the site meter didn't increase in spite of IP representation here, nor did it increase because of a lot of people came here to join a community, nor did it increase because of original writings as some like to think. Community is just the concept of a handful of members who spend a lot of time here.

Again this is my opinion.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 10:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A community of fairly open minds. You may wish to restrict that to those who take advantage of the opportunity to blather on here, but I would doubt that the majority of those 2,000 odd lurkers come here to tut tut at our stupidity and move on. They too are part of that community of people who want to find out the news and test their opinions of it against the reactions of those here.

They also commune who only watch and lurk, to grind a poetic phrase into the dust. They give us heft on google, they raise our profile in terms of hit rate. People who read the same newspaper sometimes think of themselves as a community, even if they never meet. The feel they have a commonality of attitudes, feel they share values. Even if they never meet, they feel their own views are validated by the fact that others out there are just like them.

Guardian readers even name themselves Guardianistas. Yet they do not know each other, barely even meet on CiF which is infested by the US right wing pushing back on the liberal menace. They are a community. and they never speak to each other.

We are a community. All 2,000 daily visitors. And we have a commonality, a sharing and most of us have never met nor even will know their opinion as they lurk. But htey are us and we are them. European Tribune - A community of fairly open minds and damned by that faint praise. You evidently do not comprehend what that means, the pride in being part of this. Your loss

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can we just agree to disagree?

We have a different notion about just who those 2,000 visitors, and just what they are here for, and I don't think it is for a lesson in creative writing or commaradarie. It's about information. It's the same reason I go to many sites that I'm not even a member of. Information, content. There are many excellant writers, for example, at Huffington Post, Open Left, Salon, and other left wing sites, but if the content is uninteresting to me, I move on. I don't dwell on the grammar and beautiful sentence structure of their writings. Nothing could be more wasteful.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 12:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shergald:
Since I joined ET two years ago

This is not meant to bluntly contradict you, but your impression of the past is mistaken. The log shows you joined ET on the 14th February 2006, well over four years ago.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:16:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the first of 209 diaries was on January 1, 2008.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:27:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is true but I did not begin to post or post regularly until about two years ago.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 12:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a small point of PNing. I think diaries belong to the people who post them, but the comments don't. However the comments are not understandable without the context of the diary. Tricky one. But you are right.

As soon as there is one comment to the diary posted by someone other than the diarist, then, the diary is not theirs to delete.

We have had cases where the diary body has been blanked out by the diarist. That is actually acceptable.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
That is actually acceptable.

....and even an improvement :-)

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hold up.

Use constitutes a work-for-hire agreement?

LOL!

You understand that the labor performed is a "work for hire."  [Click here and type company name] shall own all rights to the work in its name or otherwise.

You warrant that the work will be an original work that has not been in the public domain or previously created, and that the work will be free of any unauthorized extractions from other sources. You further understand that [Click here and type company community name] has the privilege of referring to you as a vendor in sales and marketing presentations and materials.

Please signify your approval of this agreement by completing the form below and return one copy to us for our files.

Y'all may want to reconsider working that boilerplate into the new account form and NEW USER GUIDE.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PSA: American Society of Journalists and Authors

EKmMD

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one here has the right to judge "a total mischaracterization of what transpired" after deleting the evidence, the discussion as it took place.

In other words, you lost your right to comment, just as i would have had i done the same.

We can't "just leave it there," because you didn't.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the ad hominums and insults that JakeS began engaging in

The only thing he did was calling you an astroturfer and a troll. Everything else was pretty factual.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't remember calling him a troll. I troll-rated some of his comments because he accused me of supporting the siege of Gaza. It was shergald who asked (perhaps rhetorically) if he was a troll. To which I replied with an ambiguous "if the shoe fits..."

I stand by my calling astroturf, though. Incessant posting of un- or mis-attributed third-party content, without appropriate markup and to several different sites (the deleted diary appeared at Booman, OpenLeft and here, in completely identical versions, with the same erroneous attribution and with no notification whatsoever in any of those places that they were being crossposted) and insisting on putting them in the place where they will get the highest possible profile to casual visitors, rather than where they will fit into the way the community works, are all indicators of a person who is using the site, as opposed to contributing to it.

Astroturf is as astroturf does.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No you did call me a troll, but it was Oui that you troll-rated. I really hope that Oui comes back to ET.

But we agree that we have not seen this kind of behavior, diary police actions, slamming diarists, diary hijacking, and the like, since we were both on Daily Kos. There it was principally unleashed by groups of right wing Zionists (which is how I referred to them), GIYUS operatives and the like. But it was interesting nonetheless. Only it was unexpected if pretty low-brow and anti-intellectual from otherwise smart people. That's right, isn't it?

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What happened here is that myself and a couple of the current and former frontpagers of this community finally got fed up with your persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and your unconstructive and disruptive attitude and called you on them. You then provided thirty-odd examples of unconstructive and disruptive attitude, before finally disappearing the whole sordid story down the memory hole.

You call that "diary policing." Most other people around here call it "quality control," an application of which was long overdue in this case.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" a couple of the current and former frontpagers of this community finally got fed up with your persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and your unconstructive and disruptive attitude and called you on them."

You and/or Migeru, the two of you who hijacked my diary, will really have to document for me and everyone else, these two points because quite frankly, I do now believe you are just full of crap, a liar. So point to the diaries and comments that you say conformed to these points, that made the both of you decide to trash me and my diary for over two hours, and have continued to do so on this tread, an incredibly stupid thing to do.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've got a lot of chutzpah calling for documentation from other people after flinging around baseless accusations all day and never providing a single scrap of evidence (nevermind having the common courtesy to actually provide a link to the diary you critiqued at one point). But as it happens, I did collect a couple of examples earlier. Not all of them are yours, and there are plenty more of yours that would qualify.

In point of fact, I'd like you to pick any one of your diaries, and we can match it against any one of mine, Migeru's, Colman's, afew's, Jerome's or Crazy Horse's.

I'm betting € to Zim$ that you're gonna come up short in that comparison.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
since you deleted it, but I have no qualms whatsoever stating that I believe - and fully support - JakeS and Migeru's description of what happened, because it is consistent with their behavior, fundamentally based on requesting evidence and sources for assertions and questioning all assumptions.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 03:49:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i may not be an unbiased party, but i did read the thread completely, in fact right up to the moment it was deleted (i had just commented for the first time.)

i was almost offended by shergald's lack of understanding, or willingness to accept another's views.  that's enough from me.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"What happened here is that myself and a couple of the current and former frontpagers of this community finally got fed up with your persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and your unconstructive and disruptive attitude and called you on them. You then provided thirty-odd examples of unconstructive and disruptive attitude, before finally disappearing the whole sordid story down the memory hole.

You call that "diary policing." Most other people around here call it "quality control," an application of which was long overdue in this case."

- Jake

The persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and unconstructive and disruptive attitude, were said to have prompted the attack. I asked for documentation from past diaries and comments, and none was forthcoming, precisely because nothing like this can be substantiated. So I disagree with them and believe it was a trumped up charge.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 09:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude. I linked to a comment containing three examples from you. You know what a link is, right? It's that blue highlighted text that you can click on.

Then I went AFK, and you flamed out and went into a tailspin with three or four increasingly incoherent and insulting screeds, which the frontpagers mercifully decided to hide from view. Presumably to protect what little good repute you have left.

But let's take it once again for heritor-prince Knud: Improper use of third-party content, undeclared crossposting and conspiracy theory peddling.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 10:26:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you hid the comments that challenged to you to provide documentation of accusations you made, which were entirely false.

You also hid the comment in which I reminded you that two years ago you complained to Jerome about IP diaries on the site. As as far as I can tell, you have put together, as you admitted, a group of frontpagers, two anyway, that decided to hijack my diary, engage in ad hominum attacks, insults (troll, Oui a pompous prick), and false assertions, like those above.

Your obvious agenda is to get IP off the frontpage. I can only suspect your motives, but we shall see if you succeed.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS can't hide comments. That was afew. Try and keep your _dramatise personae _ straight.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

I hid your comments in this thread. JakeS has no means of doing so (or hiding any other comments), he is not a member of the editorial team.

The accusation that there is an agenda to get Israel-Palestine off the front page is totally baseless. You were invited before to look at another diary on the subject by the stormy present, it's not just about the ships, to see what JakeS has to say there. I suggest you do so.

This discussion must end here. Any further rancorous comments -- on either side -- will be simply deleted.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not rancorous. But JakeS has never once commented on any of my diaries, so I don't think I would care to attend to his at this point.

And it was Jake who kept suggesting that my diaries should go into the Salon, or be represented by a newspaper headline with link.

I also did ask you and Migeru to substantiate the false charges Jake made. He won't; he can't.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shergald:
I don't think I would care to attend to his

Not his diary, the stormy present's. But if you don't want to see, keep your eyes shut.

Now let's end this.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Comment by JakeS deleted.

End of discussion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

A further comment by shergald was deleted too. Any further attempt to prolong this discussion will result in comments on this thread being closed.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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