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air distance doesn't help

Given the total distances, there isn't as much of a difference as you think. AMTRAK's current direct Detroit-Chicago rail route is 281 mi (452 km). Chicago to St. Louis is more different: current rail distance is 284 mi (457 km) (and target time for the line
after partial upgrades to up to 110 mph is 4h).

A comparable full HSR line would be France's first, Paris-Lyon: 432.5 km station to station, only two lightly frequented rural intermediate stops, non-stop time 1h57m with top speeds limited to 270 km/h on part of the distance.

Ann Arbor is basically a suburb of Detroit

18 miles is far enough to justify a separate station, could be done in 15 minutes by rail.

you see nothing between there and Gary, Indiana

I mentioned South Bend. But there is no reason to not keep at least half of the other current AMTRAK stops: Jackson (again just the city proper populations: 36,000), Battle Creek (53,000), Kalamazoo (77,000), Michigan City (33,000).

Toledo would be out of the way for that trip

As with the lake bend, that counts for little. By current rail distances, Chicago-Toledo is 234 mi, Toledo-Detroit 58 mi, total 292 mi (470 km). If a proper HSR line would be built, at 300 km/h, the Toledo alignment would mean a loss of just 3 minutes and 36 seconds. Much stronger detours have been justified with the extra demand (for example Madrid-Burgos via Valladolid), and the Toledo route would also mean a great cost saving in sharing tracks with a route to Cleveland and beyond. Indeed if you check the two earlier full HSR proposals for a Chicago-centred network, both route via Toledo.

If there is only an upgrade, however, then, given the significant local demand along the direct route (see above), upgrading both lines would make sense. And indeed that's what you find in the current plans for the Chicago Hub Network.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo:

Ann Arbor is basically a suburb of Detroit

18 miles is far enough to justify a separate station, could be done in 15 minutes by rail.

In addition, Ann Arbor is a major university campus. There is great potential for rail commuting there.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A parallel is Leuven/Louvain near Bruxelles: another university city at almost the same distance from the major city, population 91,000, and a 200 km/h section of the Bruxelles-Cologne route.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or Madrid, where there are university campuses in the periphery served both by Metro (Metrosur serves the various Universidad Carlos III campuses) and commuter rail (Cercanías serves the Universidad de Alcalá de Henares, Universidad Carlos III, and Universidad Autónoma).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:48:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and I forgot the second Universidad Complutense Campus served by light rail in Somosaguas as. There are two universities in the Madrid municipality, served by Metro at various locations, as well as some private universities served by light rail or cercanías both in Madrid and in the periphery.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 12:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Ann Arbor is already served by AMTRAK, so it's not a rail connection itself that is the question. On the other hand, what about Toledo, Spain? Its university is noteworthy too, isn't it?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 01:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was no university in Toledo between 1807 and 1982-5.

Toledo is linked to Madrid by AVE (which takes 30 minutes and is too expensive for daily commuting). I doubt many people commute to Toledo from Madrid to study. The Universidad de Castilla La Mancha (decentralised into 4 different provincial capitals like UC3M is decentralised around Metrosur) mostly serves to encourage people to not leave Castilla La Mancha to study in Madrid.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 26th, 2010 at 01:14:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see it. The type of students paying that U Mich tuition are not interested in commuting. That's a very high tuition. And almost none of them have interest in heading East toward Detroit. if you could somehow connect them to Grosse Pointe directly, then it might work. But there is so little traffic between AA and Detroit. When I lived in AA, I went looking for an apartment in downtown Detroit. Couldn't find a habitable building, never mind a landlord. I took in a twilight baseball game, and got involved in watching the game, didn't notice nightfall. Late in the game I looked up and saw downtown was like a black hole, no lights on in any of the buildings. The town is literally dead.

I would love to see rail though between Detroit and Chicago as anyone who has driven it has to put up with 3 things: horrid flatness for the first 3rd of the trip, the worst of American industrialization (for the middle third) in Gary, and then Chicago traffic for the last third.

by Upstate NY on Tue Jul 27th, 2010 at 10:04:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One other thing that makes this all questionable: we're talking about a state that houses the American automobile industry. In this state, people look askance at you when you drive a Japanese car. In this state, the speed limits for the highways are 10 to 15 mph higher than any other state I have been to. in this state, I'm convinced that the highways are kept in such a serious state of disrepair so as to damage your car and force you to buy a new one.
by Upstate NY on Tue Jul 27th, 2010 at 10:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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