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That graph is on the whole extremely misleading. The energy cost of constructing a reactor is measured in days of output, so should be an absolutely tiny dot on the start of that graph, and as for the back end.. Say what? I am not avare of any proposals for waste management that are ongoing energy hogs! A geological repository does not have a bloody electricity bill.
Arrrgh!
The energy consumed by enrichment mining assumed are also way out of wack, but not as obviously full of shit as the rest of the graph.
by Thomas on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 01:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You appear to be attacking the graph on the faulty premises.

The following diagram, which should be considered conceptually if not necessarily quantitatively appropriate, illustrates the main issues.

(My bold)

Thomas:

and as for the back end.. Say what? I am not avare of any proposals for waste management that are ongoing energy hogs! A geological repository does not have a bloody electricity bill.

There is no ongoing energy hog in the graph, if there was one phase 3 would not stop. Phase 3 consists of: waste conditioning, clean-up, cooling in safe storage, dismantling and final disposal. All of which costs energy.

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by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 02:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is an "energy hog", BTW? (Google doesn't help)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 02:08:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A hog is a domesticated pig. From it springs the word hogging.

Hogging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Greedily eating something, or taking too much of it: see wikt:hogging

So an energy hog would be something that use (too) much energy.

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by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 02:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The graph is not claiming to be to scale, no, but the scales picked are utterly arbritary and intended to make you conclude that nuclear power is a net energy consumer, and facts be dammed. High grade example of lying through your teeth with pretty pictures.
by Thomas on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 04:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... show a net energy loss, wouldn't it? If it was "intended to show nuclear power is a net energy consumer", showing nuclear as a net energy producer as the schematic actually does would fall a bit short of the intention.

The diagram actually says if you know the figures for each stage, add all the energy gains, minus all the energy costs, the difference is the net energy.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 08:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The energy cost of constructing a reactor is measured in days of output

What do you mean?

I am not avare of any proposals for waste management that are ongoing energy hogs!

To be pedantic, waste has to be transported and treated to; but methinks the disposal energy costs include disposal site construction, concreting-over, and the energy needed by the machines doing the dismantling and collecting the soil...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 02:06:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
.. okay here we go. an EPR outputs 1650 megawatts of electricity. This is 1650 x 24 megawatthours of electricity per day. Or to put it into units a bit smaller, 39600000 kwh/day.
If the plant under consideration is replacing coal fired capacity, (815 grams co2/kwh, according to externe)
this works out to 32274 tonnes of CO2 emissions saved per day. an epr clocks in at 180000 tonnes of concrete and steel.. Concrete production emmits some 1.25 tonnes co2 per tonne of concrete, and steel some 2 tonnes of CO2 per tonne of steel, so at a maximum, the embodied CO2 in an epr is some 300000 tonnes. or less than 10 days worth of operations. Make it twenty if we are replacing gas instead of coal, but the carbon from construction does not really amount to squat over the 60 year life of a reactor.
by Thomas on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 04:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I admit- this is not intuitively obvious - the first time I napkinned those numbers, I went "that cant be right", but the facts are that while nuclear power plants cost a heck of a lot of money, the material consumption in construction is quite modest. The bulk of the costs are skilled labor and suppliers taking advantage of the mismatch between the demand from the nuclear rebirth and the sad state of the supply chain industries to gouge like hell.
by Thomas on Tue Jul 13th, 2010 at 04:15:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How did you get from from EROEI and measuring in days of output to CO2?

If you originally meant to make the point that the energy input of construction is much less compared to annual production than indicated on the graph, you may have been right. But, being the nitpicker, I have to put the figures right.

This source claims the Olkiluoto 3 EPR is 250,000 m³ concrete (about 600,000 t) and 52,000 t steel. Calculating with 20 GJ/t for steel and 1.6 GJ/m³ for concrete, I get 1.44*10^15 J, or 0.4 TWh. I don't know how to estimate the energy use to move the excavation volume of 450,000 m³ and the energy input of the making and transport of other building materials, but the total is probably not magnitudes higher. Against this stands an annual production of 14 TWh at a high capacity factor of 97%.

Then again, the real question marks still concern the enegy input of making the fuel and decommissioning.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 14th, 2010 at 05:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
,, or, as I said, ten days. (used carbon instead of energy because I can actually remember those numbers off hand..) Compared to a 60 year operating life, if put into accurate scale the construction phase would literally not show up on the graph. Or rather, it would be a flat line leading up to reactor start. The only aspect of the nuclear fuel cycle which does consume quantities of energy that would actually show up to the human eye in a graph of energy consumption versus output is enrichment - and this is a legacy effect due to the rather horrid inefficiency of gaseous diffusion.
by Thomas on Wed Jul 14th, 2010 at 05:38:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why the hell various sources disagree about how much the EPR weighs tough.. say what? That really should not be a subject of debate. puzzled
by Thomas on Wed Jul 14th, 2010 at 05:41:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RE: shutdown.. honestly, given the extensions we are seeing on the current generation of plants, and the extreme focus on longevity / ease of maintainance in the epr design, I would not be shocked if come 2332 O-3 is still in operation on the grounds of "it costs less to keep it running than it does to build another zero-point-energy-tap"
by Thomas on Wed Jul 14th, 2010 at 05:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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