Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
You need references? They're all over the web! For a start, go to Wikipedia:
Saudi influence
See also: Wahhabism

Which part of

the Saudis and the Iranians were both financing radical Imams [Citation Needed]

did you find it hard to parse?

While there are some far right, racist groups that are vocal opponents of Islam's spread in Europe, I note that a majority of Europeans from France to Switzerland to Germany to Denmark are concerned with the growing number of insular, intolerant, Sharia practising communities which live outside of the legal and social frameworks established by our governments.

A growing number of Americans believe that Iran is going to nuke Tel Aviv first chance it gets. Ain't it amazing what a concerted, unopposed campaign of malign slander can do to a population? I find it rather fascinating, although it has obviously troubling implications for the viability of Really Existing Democracy...

Cordoba House is not a mosque?

That's right. It's not a mosque. What wingnut hate-site told you that it was?

Tell me, who is financing this Muslim center of religious teaching

The centre is under no obligation to disclose its funding under American law.

If you want a law stating that all charitable contributions from foreign sources must be declared, then I'm all with you. But until and unless all non-profits have to declare funding sources, singling out a community centre on the sole basis that it is run by Muslims is simple harassment.

And as it happens, I Googled a couple of the names on the Cordoba House website, and turns out that the founder is an imam of the Sufi school. He actually seems like a pretty reasonable guy. Anyway, I did a little more digging to figure out what kind of fish a Sufi is. Turns out that it's exceedingly unlikely that there's Wahhabi or Saudi money in that project, since the Saudis and the Wahhabi are violently opposed [.pdf] to Sufism.

You keep confusing Turkey, North Africa (which is actually five different countries...) and Saudi Arabia.

Cheap shot.

Uh, no. You keep making bold claims about Egypt and backing them up with references to practises in Iran, making even bolder claims about Iran and backing them up with references to practises in Saudi Arabia.

Yes (I want to smother the Church). The American experience in not doing so indicates that failure to smother the political aspirations and social role of the dominant religious groups compromises people's ability to live completely free of their dogma.

I have an idea for you. Why don't you focus on smothering Islam?

The two are not mutually exclusive, and extremist Christianity is a greater force for evil in the part of the world I happen to live in.

Which part of (putting Churches under government control) did you find hard to understand?

The part that explains why. You haven't provided any citations of hate speech in the French Catholic Church... or any Christian Church for that matter.

Five seconds of Google.

No, you're funny. You're confusing social profile with political profile,

That distinction is another Enlightenment fallacy - that the State is the sole entity with the capacity to exercise power.

More homophobic and sexist than Islam?
Or less homophobic and sexist than Islam?

More homophobic and sexist than the state churches of Western Europe. Which is the appropriate baseline. "They do it too" is an argument that is normally abandoned sometime around the third grade.

if I live in Poland, the Baltic rim or Central Europe, where it practises hate speech from the pulpits.

Citation needed.

Polish Woman Denied Abortion Awaits EU Judgment

Money quote:

Tysiac's case against her gynecologist drew national press coverage as well as public censure. After 60 Catholic women's groups in Poland launched street protests and a media campaign against her, Tysiac said her children started being harassed in school.

More generally, the far-right parties League of Polish Families and the PiS are heavily intertwined with the Catholic Church, and the League, at least, sports a youth organisation (All Polish Youth) that apparently finds it perfectly justified to commit violence against civil rights demonstrations.

How long ago would you have said the same thing about Croatia? 1993? I fully expect to be alive in 2030.

Croatia? I would have said that immediately following German reunification. But maybe I'm just visionary.

Ah, of course. Being Mooslim is so much worse than participating in a brutal ethnic cleansing...

But tell me, public opinion is largely against integrating Turkey.

shrug Public opinion used to be against gay marriage and legal abortions too. Public opinion changes, and the integration of North Africa has economic and strategic reality on its side.

So what's the plan? A major propaganda operation to brainwash the dumb European public into thinking that integrating Turkey into the EU is good for them?

The plan is to start by not further propagandising against Turkey. More generally, the plan is to split away support from ugly parties and their panderers by rolling back the neoliberal disaster policies that create insecurity and fear for the future. At the same time, the plan is to deepen commercial, infrastructural and diplomatic links with Turkey. When visiting and doing business with Turkey is as natural and commonplace as visiting and doing business with Greece or Romania, much of the fear and hostility will abate.

What started off with a burning desire to smother the Church has morphed into a benign desire to eliminate its influence from political life.

Where did you get the "burning desire" part from? You proposed an excellent way to combat the infiltration of extremist Islamic organisations operating out of a hostile, anti-democratic dictatorship. I just noted that we have an extremist Christian organisation operating out of a hostile, anti-democratic dictatorship, and suggested that we apply the same instrument to that problem.

(Religion is) a serious threat to the public welfare, as is the case in most of Africa.

Good! So it would appear that you DO understand the underlying reasons why I'm hostile to bringing North Africa (or Turkey) into the EU.

Well, in my mental geography Africa starts at the Sahara and Asia at the Urals. Your mileage may vary. But yes, the countries of North Africa would need to develop a relationship with their religious groups - the dominant as well as the minority ones - that is compatible with modern European civilisation.

You may find the Egyptian constitution fantastic for all I care. The fact of the matter is that Sharia (the site where you did your search refers to "Islamic Law" what in fact is Sharia in Arabic) is THE ultimate source of legislative interpretation and is administered through Islamic courts which are financed by the state.

Actually, the Islamic courts are lower courts with limited jurisdiction, whose decisions can be appealed to real courts, operating under ordinary secular law.

The problem with Egypt is not, as far as I can tell, in its constitutional law. Rather, it is in the fact that the government appears to regard constitutional law in much the same way most Europeans regard traffic regulations.

What was that you said about wanting to smother... (or was it eliminate) religion from the political sphere? Why don't you write a diary about the influence of Islam in the Egyptian political sphere?

You mean beyond the fact that my area of expertise is in economics and natural science, not comparative law? Really, the only reason I'm schooling you here is that you are making such basic mistakes as would embarrass any half-way informed European citizen.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 4th, 2010 at 10:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Others have rated this comment as follows:

DoDo 4


Occasional Series