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Rape the female inhabitants? No. There was no rape.

You're right. It was a different genocide where they took the conquered population's women as their wives. The Canaanites were simply massacred down to the last child.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 8th, 2010 at 09:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, this is your "proof" that the Christian (and Jewish) God calls for genocide. Tell me, as a Christian or a Jew living in the 1st, 10th or 21st century... who is it that God is calling me to "brutally murder"?
by Lynch on Thu Sep 9th, 2010 at 02:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lynch:
Tell me, as a Christian or a Jew living in the 1st, 10th or 21st century... who is it that God is calling me to "brutally murder"?

Well, maybe not God, but his representatives on Earth did organise quite a number of massacres. Do you want a list?  

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Sep 9th, 2010 at 03:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No...
This thread got started when I stated that "the Koran explicitly calls for the elimination of the infidels ad nauseam"... and you responded by stating (first implicitly, then explicitly) that the Bible too calls for Genocide.

Hence my question that you didn't answer: who is the Bible calling on me to "brutally murder"?

by Lynch on Fri Sep 10th, 2010 at 01:18:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Infidels who don't voluntarily submit to slavery. See passages quoted upthread.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 09:30:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, since he's imaginary, he's probably not calling for you to murder anyone. There is rather a history of people imagining that he told them to kill other people though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 9th, 2010 at 06:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, this is your "proof" that the Christian (and Jewish) God calls for genocide.

No, it is an example. Anybody with the google-fu of a three-years-old can find others in a heartbeat.

Tell me, as a Christian or a Jew living in the 1st, 10th or 21st century... who is it that God is calling me to "brutally murder"?

Palestinians, homosexuals and medical doctors, to take just three that the American Taliban seem to be able to find scriptural support for murdering with dreary regularity.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Sep 10th, 2010 at 05:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... since you mentioned the Wahhabi, let's take a look at their American equivalents: The Reconstructionists. These nice guys believe that God calls for stoning of adulterers, overthrow of democratic government and its replacement with rule by divine right and assorted other funny things.

Oh, and did I mention that some of the more prominent madmen in that sect (Rushdoony [late, unlamented] and Ahmanson [at large] in particular) have their money all over the American Christian Right - from the Teabaggers to the Creationists? Saying that they own the American right is obviously misguided, but they are a comparable influence to - say - Mr. Scaife, and about as malign.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Sep 10th, 2010 at 05:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Palestinians, homosexuals and medical doctors...

Oh really? Where? Proscribing homosexuality is not the same as calling on His followers to exterminate homosexuals (and medical doctors??). WTF?

seem to be able to find scriptural support for murdering with dreary regularity

Yeah. SEEM to be able to find. But DON'T.

by Lynch on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 02:50:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh really? Where? Proscribing homosexuality is not the same as calling on His followers to exterminate homosexuals

That's a theological argument that you should be having with your Reconstructionist brothers in the faith, not with me. You wanted to tar all of Islam with the Wahhabi just a couple of posts ago. Well, turnabout is fair play.

(and medical doctors??). WTF?

A recent example of Christian political murder. A less recent example.

Yeah. SEEM to be able to find. But DON'T.

Says you. There's plenty of Islamic scholars who are equally insistent that the Wahhabi and their kindred spirits to be theologically misguided. But apparently Islam is responsible for every extremist sect, while Christians are permitted to simply disavow the theology of their bomb-throwers and move on. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me as to why this is not a case of blatant special pleading?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 09:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. I'll tell you what I have a real problem with. People like you who spew hate against Christians, while systematically turning a blind eye to Muslim extremism - whether it's in Europe or elsewhere. I certainly denounce any and all forms of Christian fundamentalism, but I don't feel threatened by it for two reasons:
  • First, because the social orders we live in are clearly and unambiguously secular
  • Second, because when I go to Church (and I've done it all: Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox... European, Russian, American) I don't hear hate coming out of the preacher's mouth. That doesn't mean it never happens - but it's rare.

On the other hand, the separation between the state and Islam is anything but clear in predominantly Muslim states - including Turkey. In fact, it's anything but clear in Muslim dominated communities in Europe. Islam's presence in state affairs results in reduced rights for both non Muslims and Muslims (compared to the rights we have in Europe or the US). Hate speech against Western Civilization, Jews and Christians is common in mosques. Even political leaders such as Erdogan preach against the integration of Muslims into European societies (see his speech in Cologne in 2008 to a group of 20000 Muslims).

But you, for some reason, go out of your way to defend Islam point blank - and refuse to see any threat whatsoever that Islam may pose to the freedoms that we have (and that we should cherish) in Europe. That's what I have a problem with.

by Lynch on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 11:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The victims of the Belgian - and other - sexual Catholic abuse scandals will be touched by your concern.

So will Tony Blair, whose dedication to the separation of church and state forced him to hide his religious crankiness from the public while it also led him into supporting a psychotic war after 'praying to god for guidance'.

As for 'Islamic fundamentalism' - that didn't actually exist as a viable or influential political movement until the CIA decided it would be a useful stick with which to whack the Soviet pinata until it disgorged those useful oil territories in the 'Stans.

Cue cash and weapons in return for drugs.

And here we are.

Is there anyone here who isn't familiar with Mossadeq's secular but oh-so dangerously left-leaning Iran?

Are you really so ignorant and naive that you don't realise these idiocies aren't fundamentally about religion?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 11:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Erdogan preach against the integration of Muslims into European societies (see his speech in Cologne in 2008 to a group of 20000 Muslims)

Do you have a single claim that has anything to do with reality (rather than distortions at hate sites like Jihadwatch)? Erdogan's full speech can be read in German here. He didn't speak about Muslims, he spoke about Turks. And he spoke out against forced assimilation -- in particular, the right to use Turkish as mother language. This passage of contention was in the middle of a longer talk on integration in host countries, complete with learning the local language, going to schools, serving the local economy, and taking part in social life including getting elected in local elections.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 12:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, the one single religious reference in the entire long text is when Erdogan lauds the "Alliance of Civilisations" initiative he started with Spain's Zapatero...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 12:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,534519,00.html

The prime minister goes on to address the integration of Turks in Germany. "I understand that you are sensitive about the issue of assimilation," Erdogan says. "No one can demand that from you." Assimilation -- in other words, conforming to German culture -- is a catchword that Turkish immigrants associate with their fear of losing their national identity. Erdogan does not repeat the controversial demand he made to German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday, when he called for the founding of Turkish-language educational institutions in Germany. Today, he only says: "It is your natural right to teach your children their mother tongue."

During his long speech, Erdogan plays the integration card as he sees fit. He makes conciliatory noises, but he stops short of making a plea for assimilation. Although much remains vague, at times he takes a pragmatic tone. "Take advantage of Germany's educational institutions," he says. "It's a disadvantage if you don't speak the language of the country." Nevertheless, his speech, in which the phrases "we Turks" and "the Germans" appear again and again, does deliver a clear message: You may live in Germany, but you are Turks -- and I am your prime minister.

The original text in German also quotes Erdogan as adding:

"I understand very well the sensitive point of assimilation. No one can expect you to tolerate assimilation. No one can expect that you submit to assimilation. Because assimilation is a crime against humanity. You should be aware of that."

by Lynch on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 04:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't understand why you insist on using secondary sources when there is a perfectly fine link to the primary source in a post that I know you've read, because you replied to it.

But here we go again:

I understand the sensitivity you show towards assimilation very well. Nobody can expect you to tolerate assimilation. No one can expect from you that you submit to an assimilation. Because assimilation is a crime against humanity, you should be aware. But we must also take note of the following: you can in today's Germany, in Europe today, in today's world, no longer be regarded as "the Other", as one who is only here temporarily. Consider The Turkish community has spent fully 47 years for this country. Not only in Germany, many European countries is approaching the number of our citizens, almost five million. It is noteworthy that despite this huge operation, despite the numerical strength, certain basic problems in these countries are still not on the agenda. Of course, our children will learn Turkish. This is to share your native language and it is their natural right, your mother your children.

However, if you learn the language of the country where you live, or even a few more languages, you would benefit from it in every way. Look, many of our children here learning at an early age no foreign languages. These children are confronted with German only when they start school. And that means that these children have in comparison to the other students the school career with a handicap of one who begins from scratch. But it would be for you and your children in any way be beneficial if you exploit the opportunities offered by the local school system.

In the Germanic language group, there is a distinction between integration - conforming to the laws and etiquette of society - and assimilation - wholesale replacement of language, mannerisms, cuisine and so on. The line is somewhat fuzzy, and on many individual issues reasonable people can disagree on what is a matter of personal taste and what is a breach of etiquette.

I personally find that framing somewhat contrived, but that's the context he speaks into.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 06:44:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This assimilation-integration thing must be embedded in a Germany context. The fall-back position of German conservatives after the abandonment of the guest worker fantasy was that immigrants indeed have to choose between identities: be a German, or be a Turk. In their view, there is no such thing as having both; someone claiming a German identity while not ready to let loose of the Turkish one is a 100% Turk in disguise to get the benefits of German citizenship. Or, at least, that's the ideology behind their categorical rejection of double citizenship a few years earlier, and later expressed views on education and 'leading culture' followed from that. This is what Erdogan reacted to.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 06:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People like you who spew hate against Christians,

Hate? That's an interesting claim. Perchance you'd want to quote me on some of that?

I certainly denounce any and all forms of Christian fundamentalism,

So you denounce and reject the Vatican's meddling in the electoral politics of Ireland, Spain and Poland? Or do they not qualify as "fundamentalist?"

but I don't feel threatened by it for two reasons:
First, because the social orders we live in are clearly and unambiguously secular

Of course it is. Just as clearly and unambiguously secular as Turkey or Egypt.

Second, because when I go to Church (and I've done it all: Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox... European, Russian, American) I don't hear hate coming out of the preacher's mouth. That doesn't mean it never happens - but it's rare.

And I suppose that you have also been to mosques and heard Islamic sermons? Or are you basing your double standard purely on your greater familiarity with Christian liturgy?

On the other hand, the separation between the state and Islam is anything but clear in predominantly Muslim states - including Turkey.

[Citation needed]

In fact, it's anything but clear in Muslim dominated communities in Europe.

As opposed to those Catholic dominated communities where secular law is held in the highest possible regard, and priests are remanded into the custody of secular authorities at the first suspicion of criminality?

Islam's presence in state affairs results in reduced rights for both non Muslims and Muslims (compared to the rights we have in Europe or the US).

Yes. The meddling of religious groups in the affairs of secular civilisation usually results in reduced liberty for the citizens. This, however, is common to all religious groups, and the EU has thus far been able to deal with even the aggressive religious imperialism of the Vatican. In terms of funding, organisation and access to influential political operatives, the political Islam lobby is light-years behind the Vatican, so it is not easy to believe that it will be an insurmountable problem.

Hate speech against Western Civilization, Jews and Christians is common in mosques.

[Citation needed]

Even political leaders such as Erdogan preach against the integration of Muslims into European societies (see his speech in Cologne in 2008 to a group of 20000 Muslims).

I don't know where you get your information, but I would suggest allowing your subscription to lapse. Because you are severely misinformed. Die Welt has the speech to which you refer. This is the pertinent couple of paragraphs, courtesy of GoogleTranslate:

I understand the sensitivity you show towards assimilation very well. Nobody can expect you to tolerate assimilation. No one can expect from you that you submit to an assimilation. Because assimilation is a crime against humanity, you should be aware. But we must also take note of the following: you can in today's Germany, in Europe today, in today's world, no longer be regarded as "the Other", as one who is only here temporarily. Consider The Turkish community has spent fully 47 years for this country. Not only in Germany, many European countries is approaching the number of our citizens, almost five million. It is noteworthy that despite this huge operation, despite the numerical strength, certain basic problems in these countries are still not on the agenda. Of course, our children will learn Turkish. This is to share your native language and it is their natural right, your mother your children.

However, if you learn the language of the country where you live, or even a few more languages, you would benefit from it in every way. Look, many of our children here learning at an early age no foreign languages. These children are confronted with German only when they start school. And that means that these children have in comparison to the other students the school career with a handicap of one who begins from scratch. But it would be for you and your children in any way be beneficial if you exploit the opportunities offered by the local school system.

I'm not sure what, precisely, you find objectionable here?

But you, for some reason, go out of your way to defend Islam point blank

Eh, no. Better luck next time.

You entered into a discussion on the viability of the integration of North Africa with the European Union with a series of claims based on the presumption that most of North Africa is populated by extremist regimes pandering to a barbaric culture of hateful fundamentalists. This is simply not the case. You further insinuated that the New York Cordoba House project had Iranian and/or Saudi funding, despite the fact that anybody with ten minutes to look them up on Google and even a superficial understanding of the political picture in the Middle East will realise the staggering, monumental improbability of this proposition. And you trotted out the oft-debunked Ahmedinejad speech gambit. Then you tried to insinuate that Erdogan has been fomenting a Muslim fifth column to resist integration into European society. When in fact he explicitly advocated integration into European society.

Have you considered that perhaps what you construe as apologetics for Islamic fundamentalism is merely an attempt to disabuse you of silly, factually inaccurate and paranoid propaganda?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 12:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I suppose that you have also been to mosques and heard Islamic sermons?

In fact, I would have been interested in witnessing prayer in a Mosque. But, last time I was in Morocco, I was forbidden to go into a Mosque because I was obviously not Muslim. So much for tolerance.

You need a citation for hate speach? You yourself agreed that it was a good idea for the French state to finance Mosque building so that it could impose hand picked Imams and do away with calls to Jihad. But now, you need a citation. A short memory won't get you far.

Even in Syria, the government has recently started installing cameras in the country's mosques so as to monitor extremist groups (BBC source - last week).

And when was the last time YOU participated in Mosque prayers?

by Lynch on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 01:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You need a citation for hate speach?

No, I need a citation for hate speech being more common in mosques than in churches. Which is a stronger claim than the simple occurrence of hate speech.

You yourself agreed that it was a good idea for the French state to finance Mosque building so that it could impose hand picked Imams and do away with calls to Jihad.

Well, no. I agreed that it would be a good idea for the French state to finance mosque building so that it could impose hand picked imams and do away with calls for political activism and reactionary bullshit from the pulpit. Political activism and reactionary bullshit are somewhat broader categories than calls for jihad. Although calls for jihad are, of course, a subset of political activism and reactionary bullshit.

Even in Syria, the government has recently started installing cameras in the country's mosques so as to monitor extremist groups (BBC source - last week).

"Even" Syria installed cameras in mosques? Last time I checked, Syria was a military dictatorship. I didn't realise that it was unexpected for military dictatorships to bug religious gatherings...

And when was the last time YOU participated in Mosque prayers?

That would be precisely as much your business as when I last attended a Christian church: None whatsoever. I am not the one peddling anecdotes pertaining to the relative abundance of gore in the liturgy of Islam as compared to Christianity.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 04:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me tell you about propaganda. My (pretty, young) nice finished medical school last year and landed a job in Molenbeek. Was so harassed (jeered, stared down at and otherwise bullied) by the local community that she ended up wearing a hidjab - just to be left alone. Couldn't handle it anymore after 6 months. Resigned and is looking for a job elsewhere. But of course, this is just propaganda, isn't it? It's just so politically correct to shut up and smile.
by Lynch on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 01:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What has that to do with any of your blatantly false claims about Iran, Ahmedinejad, the 'Ground Zero Mosque', the Koran, Egypt, Turkey, Erdogan, and so on in this thread? And based on your record of gross distortions in this thread, we should believe that this anecdote is a precise account of events and is evidence for anything because?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 01:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does it have to do with the rest?
Absolutely nothing. We were talking about the North Pole and Cheddar cheese.
by Lynch on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 01:30:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, you admit that you fell for erroneous propaganda on that rather long list you call "the rest".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 01:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you telling us that a young (christian, supposedly) woman is forced to wear a hidjeb in Molenbeek-Saint-Jean (Brussels)?

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 02:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Where did you read that she was 'forced'?
She decided of her own free will, so as to be left in peace.
by Lynch on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 03:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All the Abrahamic religions have an atrocious attitude towards women. And certainly misogyny and homophobia is more blatant (and probably more widespread) in the Arabic cultural sphere.

And if you had made the case from the outset that North Africa had a severe problem with gender equality, democratic accountability and human rights in general, nobody would have gainsaid that. Those are concerns that the EU tackled poorly in the Eastwards expansion. It's perfectly reasonable to demand safeguards against repeating the Polish mistake of granting admission to a country whose political culture is severely lacking.

But that is not what you were arguing. You were arguing that there is an essential character flaw in Islam that is not present in Christianity and which makes North Africa impossible to integrate into the EU. Not just today, or tomorrow or this decade or while they adapt their legal and political systems to European norms. But permanently and insurmountably. And that's the core of my disagreement with you: I do not see a difference in kind between Russia, Egypt and Poland - only a difference in degree.

Of course, it does not help your credibility that you elected to repeatedly bring utter garbage to the table, in the form of baseless slanders against Erdogan, paranoid and delusional insinuations against the Cordoba House, long-debunked urban legends about Ahmadinejad and flat untruths about Egypt.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Sep 11th, 2010 at 03:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

Check Ahmedinejad's "World Without Zionism" speach.
In fact, just type "Ahedinejad Israel" in Google and learn. You've really got nerve defending this guy.

Paranoid and delusional. LOL.

by Lynch on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 05:12:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're lying again.

I do not and did not defend Ahmadinejad. I disabused you of a couple of urban legends and exaggerations about him. There are plenty of valid criticisms of both him and the Iranian government. But you're not presenting any of them, because you insist on couching the discussion in terms of the abiding malice of Islam, rather than the specific, tangible political conflicts that occasion objectionable behaviour.

That being said, the only really damning quotes you've linked to are a few from late 2005 and early '06 in support of holocaust denial. These have a very specific origin as a response to the cartoon jihad. And while using holocaust denial to make a cheap (and misguided) political point about European hypocrisy vis-a-vis freedom of speech is outrageous, it is somewhat less outrageous than holocaust denial just for the sake of it.

Oh, and it seems like he's a 9/11 troofer. Which is of course ridiculous, but fairly harmless.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 06:30:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're lying again.

No, Mr. Sierra, I can't accept. It would appear that the one who is lying again is you.

Just a couple of comments above, you wrote:

Actually, Ahmedinejad has never called for the destruction of Israel, as anybody who follows Middle East politics even casually knows perfectly well. Unless, of course, they're relying on the American propaganda press for their information.
- Jake

Ahmedinejad explicitly called for Israel's destruction in 2005, and this call has been relayed by the international press - not just the American press.

Here's an RFI link in French:
http://www.rfi.fr/actufr/articles/070/article_39445.asp

And this ranting didn't stop in 2005 - as you seem to imply, but continues to this very day.

Here's a Belgian link of one of his speeches in February 2010 where he says that "Israel has no reason to exist".

http://www.rtbf.be/info/monde/po/pour-m-ahmadinejad-israel-na-plus-de-raison-detre-192386

Just you keep finding excuses for Mr. Ahmedinejad & all will be well.

by Lynch on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 02:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Im sure we've covered on more than one occasion that this was originally from a mistranslation, taken out of context. The fact that reporters translate from english to their native languages rathet than arabic is hardly surprising in the current economic climate in the media world.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 02:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahmedinejad explicitly called for Israel's destruction in 2005

You insist on repeating this urban legend as if it were true. It's not. Note that Juan Cole, unlike Wolf Blitzer, actually understands Farsi...

Here's a Belgian link of one of his speeches in February 2010 where he says that "Israel has no reason to exist".

Did the DDR have any reason to exist? More to the point, would it be honest to construe a call for the DDR to cease to exist (in, say, 1987) as a call for the extermination of a third of the German people?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 12th, 2010 at 02:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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