Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
and the only reason the EU expanded to Central and Eastern Europe was to take over the exploitation structure put in place by the Soviet Union to the Wes's benefit.

Are you saying that there is no path to genuine cooperation between Europe and Africa, because it can only be about exploitation of Africa by Europe? Or what?

The Mediteranean basin was a single world centuries ago, and the links have never really left. Quite frankly, quite often it feels like there is more in common between a Marseillais, a Sicilian, a Tunisian or a Lebanese than between a Marseillais and a Dane...

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 03:52:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... of a thread some time ago (hello Migeru!) where Mig produced an interesting outline/map for Europe of economic/cultural areas based upon watersheds, river basins, natural barriers etc.

I have been focusing my efforts for some time on the historic 'Hanseatic' area around the North and Baltic Seas, but extensible to (say) Ireland, Iceland, Faroes and so on.

It seems to me that the Mediterranean basin is in many ways a more natural geo-political, cultural and economic nexus than the national and international accidents of history we have.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 09:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I cannot speak to the vagaries of continental European alliances with Russia or against the USSR.

Unless you care to discuss adventures in Angola.

Are you saying that there is no path to genuine cooperation between Europe and Africa, because it can only be about exploitation of Africa by Europe?

If there were a "path to genuine cooperation" --in contrast to resource exploitation and postcolonial suzeraignty-- it would be self-evident at this point in time in the "genuine" integration of cultural and material enterprises among and between peoples in Africa and Europe.

We be celebrating "liberalization" of capital flows and human migration assured by intergovernmental administration of EU and African Union members. We would be celebrating the resolution of COP15.

But no.

And I am walking a ring of a self-deception about "natural" barriers to cooperation. The fantasy that French West Africa does not exist. But a cosmopolitan metropolis of antiquity is risen.

To serve the purposes of a Greater Europe.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 11:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cat:
If there were a "path to genuine cooperation" --in contrast to resource exploitation and postcolonial suzeraignty-- it would be self-evident at this point in time in the "genuine" integration of cultural and material enterprises among and between peoples in Africa and Europe.

It is true that the current relationship between European countries (mainly France and the UK) and most of the Sub-Saharan African countries is still shamefully neocolonialist.

But do you mean that because a genuinely cooperative relationship doesn't exist, it cannot exist? At the end of the 1940s, one could have said a European Union was not possible...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 11:46:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
re: "But do you mean that because a genuinely cooperative relationship doesn't exist, it cannot exist?"

As I've described "a genuinely cooperative relationship": Not in my lifetime.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 12:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cat:
Not in my lifetime.

Ah, but I was thinking long term. And, as Jérôme Keynes would tell you: "In the long term, we're all dead"...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 12:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe has been evil and will always be evil. I get it. What are you doing on European Tribune, exactly?

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 24th, 2010 at 06:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had supposed for the many of the reasons you continue to post at dailykos.

Now I know better.

good-bye.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Aug 25th, 2010 at 12:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that I'm not writing that nothing good could ever come of any policy coming out of America, just because it is coming out of America. I've been critical of policies, and politicians but I don't think I've ever written on dKos "whetever you do, it's bad" like you basically did about Europe in this thread.

So,non the comparison is not valid.

In any case, I'm not denying Europe's colonialist past, nor the continued exploitative beahavior of many of its companies in Africa today, but your blanket rejection that anything done with Africa is going to be exploitative by definition is just not acceptable.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 25th, 2010 at 07:10:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That sounds awfully like love it or leave it...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 25th, 2010 at 01:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but there is no room for manoeuver in Cat's position.

It's a different thing to say "there is a significant risk, given the past and some still current European behavior in Africa, that a partnership would end up being unfair" and to say "any partnership will be exploitative because that's what Europeans are and do"

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 25th, 2010 at 07:12:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and if you dare suggest that North Africa joining a Euro-Mediterranean union might make sense economically and politically:

That's your inner, patronizing imperialist speaking


"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Wed Aug 25th, 2010 at 07:28:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fear that it has more to do with self regard and aspiration than with analytic rigor. What Cat was saying comes from perspective highly critical of US and European civilization and its impact on the rest of the world. She cited Edward Said and, to the extent that I understand Said, seems to be mostly consistent with that approach.

While many of us in the US and Europe are critical of the nature of our societies and do not wish them to continue to have the impacts that they have had on much of the rest of the world we have been signally ineffective in bringing about such change -- to the extent that total system collapse is more likely than orderly internal change.

This is not to say that Jerome, Melanchthon and others are not sincere in their desires to bring about such change, but that has not made it so. I took Cat's comments as being directed at the fact and the likely probability of outcome concerning the relationship between the USA, Europe and Africa. On that I personally suspect she is right. "Not in my lifetime" -- unless via collapse. The poison in the soul of our shared cultures is deep and at the root of its organization. We all have to take responsibility for that, whether we are benificiaries, victims or both.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 8th, 2010 at 12:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a very real risk that any such relationship will be exploitative. The industrial development business is overrun with economic hit men, pork barrel and assorted other colonial nastiness.

However, the risk of an exploitative economic relationship is, I would argue, an argument for increased involvement of people who are not in favour of colonialism and who know how to spot an economic hit man and beat him at his own game. Because if we do not beat the economic hit men in some way, we'll end up with this, at least if history is any guide:

another scenario would be that Siemens et al build multi-billion-dollar facilities but keep complete control of it, without tech transfer or ownership, and thus it's them selling both to Spain and Algeria even if they also pay rent for the desert land;

Now, project finance and economic and political integration isn't the only battlefield in this particular revolution. But it's an important one, and one that we should not abdicate entirely simply because the rules are tilted against us.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 8th, 2010 at 02:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had wondered where you had gone for part of the final third of August. Part of the answer was found when I read the last 20 or so comments on JaP's diary. Sadly, I also found what had happened to Cat, though trouble seemed to be simmering the last time I looked.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 8th, 2010 at 02:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that part of the final third of August would probably be the part where I had no internet ;-P

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 8th, 2010 at 10:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
???
by vladimir on Mon Aug 30th, 2010 at 03:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So North African countries are being used in neo-colonialism to extract their resources. And that is happening right now. Then what would be wrong with the North African countries joining the EU? What is wrong with getting the vote?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Aug 25th, 2010 at 04:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series