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Though, if you're in the Serious™ age group, you may well have been an "unwashed, pot-smoking quasi-Marxist hippie".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Aug 8th, 2010 at 05:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... who used to be Dirty Fucking Hippies (DFH) are those that grew out of being a dirty fucking hippy.

The trick is to convince that cohort that while they may have been wrong about some things, there is a Serious Version(TM) of the wind turbines that they were right about.

Because, being Serious People(TM) at their core their whole life long, they couldn't have been all wrong when they were Dirty Fucking Hippies.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 8th, 2010 at 11:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not hard to be Serious™.

  1. Cult of Big.
  2. Cult of Expensive.
  3. Cult of Central Control.
  4. Cult of Sneering at the Unserious Little People in private, and lying and condescending to them in public - so they don't even notice. (Silly little people, trusting your words.)
  5. Violence is fine, as long as no one can blame you personally (at least until you're a President or a TBTF.)

There's no reason wind and solar couldn't do this. They don't have to be inherently DFH love-and-peace-ish.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 8th, 2010 at 11:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... but of course, the fact that wind power has the prospect of playing both sides of the street, of being both Serious(TM) and serious about the future ... that's part of what makes it suspect among Serious People(TM).

That is, in the list of how to be serious, Big Coal does that because it has to. It is fully committed to being Serious(TM), because if the WeSaySoInc tactics fall over, they are dead companies walking.

OTOH, no matter how much wind power companies engage in WeSaySoInc tactics ... its always suspect that they are having the Serious People(TM) on, because they can pretty much at the drop of a hat switch to being forward looking and progressive and relying on actual economic cost versus benefit as opposed to free riding economic costs to make financial costs look good.

Their loyalty to Serious People(TM) is suspect for good reason: they have a real future, and while they could well act like perfectly respectable corporate psychopaths, their long term survival does not rest on acting like perfectly respectable corporate psychopaths.

The flip side of not being all-in to a Serious People(TM) strategy is that they are in a position to play both sides of the street. And indeed, the complaints from the Dirty Fucking Hippies about "utility scale wind turbines are a conspiracy to maintain corporate power in energy markets in the face of Peak Oil" (true story ... just hunt in the eighty or so comments in my Agent Orange diary) can be useful, here: they should be answered, honestly, in the forums they occur, but also quoted when around Serious People(TM).


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 8th, 2010 at 12:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
these guys play Seriously dirty, and For Keeps.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 09:49:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, offshore wind is very close to Seriousness:
  1. it is getting seriously big (a typical offshore wind farm is an investment above one billion euros, and current European plans will have ten of these built each year for the next 20 years...)
  2. it is expensive, being a capital intensive industry;
  3. it had economies of scale and making large, industrially-managed series has real value
  4. the sneering will probably happen soon...
  5. no violence, for now

But this is becoming a utility game, so yes, Seriousness is well under way.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 10:02:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can say that I already have had to face critics from guys from the left wing (I mean, more leftist than me, obviously) who reproached exactly this Seriousness to wind farms... and so opposed them! ;-)
by Xavier in Paris on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 10:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found it especially striking in the dkos commentary when someone arguing for nuclear power was criticizing utility scale wind turbines for being "corporate control of our energy".

I can understand that complaint from DFH's ... but from a pro-nuke? What?

OTOH, he didn't garner many tips, so maybe it was as puzzling to other readers.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 01:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BruceMcF:
there is a Serious Version(TM) of the wind turbines that they were right about.

yup, the central control, eternal billing, anti-independent citizen version!!

i know, i know, it's the way forward, everything else is... whatever...

be very grateful, citizen winston 48474658, for your allotted portion of our energy.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 09:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... feed-in tariffs are common to feed-in tariffs for utility scale windfarms and feed-in tariffs for household scale power sell back to utilities.

The state cannot impose a rate above avoided cost, and as presently interpreted, that rules out a life of project rate guarantee.

Only a small change would be required to permit states to adopt competitive feed-in tariffs, which would leave tax credits or portfolio standards for pushing the scale of various sustainable renewable power sources up to cost competitive levels.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 10:42:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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