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We can't compete with Arkansas, I think.

You had better hope so, unless you LIKE life on the plantation.  :-)

And the same dynamic you discussed for Germany has been happening for forty years in the USA. Some of the most reactionary elements, sadly also very wealthy, have spent large sums of money on think tanks and media to make what was, 40 years ago, a moderately progressive left into the next best thing to Stalinism and to make what was nutter right wing crazy the new center right. We should be so lucky as to be able to elect an Eisenhower today.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2011 at 03:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, it's ludicrous to use a SPIEGEL alert to take Germany's pulse.

There are all manner of idiots, smart people of all persuasions, BILD propaganda, and retro leaders.

But nothing here is as bad as in amurka. 'Schland doesn't have a menagerie of fools running for president and taken seriously. (they may be fools in a different sense, but they are not dumb, except perhaps der Guido.) Germany has an electorate capable of digesting issues if they are properly placed before them, though they are often not.

The level of discussion here is something amurka would love to replicate, because it's simply at a higher level. I'm not sure you get that, nor are open to that.

the people here have either chosen, or been led, or accepted, important moves that amurka isn't even ready to discuss.

Germany's political psychopaths are no where near as dangerous as the amurkan version, nor as effective. Nor is the population so sheeple-like. (I'm not saying it's good here, but it ain't near as bad.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Dec 9th, 2011 at 04:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Schland doesn't have a menagerie of fools running for president and taken seriously. (they may be fools in a different sense, but they are not dumb, except perhaps der Guido.) Germany has an electorate capable of digesting issues if they are properly placed before them, though they are often not

LOL. I wish that was true. Does anyone want to know what Germany's choice for the European Commission is? Ahem. "Menagerie of fools", right. The comparison to the US, especially the south, isn't everything, Crazy Horse. I mean, it's like saying we have a friendlier climate than, say, the Orkneys. True, but who hasn't.
by Katrin on Fri Dec 9th, 2011 at 05:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would never knock the Orkneys, being the home to Highland Park whisky and the world's best wind test site. (There's nothing like being served fresh ripe avocados with your whisky where there are no trees... yes, i know, carbon footprint, but it's a sweet memory of my visit to the test station.)

Oettinger notwithstanding, i stand by my point. It's not as bad here, and shows enough promise to get it right. That said, i also don't underestimate amurka's ability to make a tectonic shift.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Dec 9th, 2011 at 05:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But nothing here is as bad as in amurka. 'Schland doesn't have a menagerie of fools running for president and taken seriously.

That's true, you have them in office already.  I remind you that the wingers' economic arguments in the primary here all amount to "Look what the Germans have done for Europe!  We can do that here!"  Not only are your leaders in with the our crazies ideologically, they're lighting the way for our crazies.

Also, too, and such as...the current US president and the former UK PM warned you that this would happen two. fucking. years ago, CH, and The Great Totally-Less-Fucked-Up-We-SwearsTM Germany sandbagged both of them and pimped austerity (not to mention the Chinese president launching an enormous stimulus program).

It takes a genuine talent for incompetence and crazy to make Barack Obama, Gordon Brown and Hu Jintao look good.  (Cue the VW tagline.  "That's the Power of German Engineering!")

And then your leaders stamped their feet like children and threatened to take us to court for trying to make sure our stimulus programs went to our benefit instead of allowing them to mooch off our efforts.

The only real differences between our psychopaths and yours at this point are that (1) ours think hip-hop makes Baby Jesus cry, (2) you're not allowed to have a serious military, and (3) our central bank -- yes, the central bank of Horrifyingly Anti-ScienceTM "Amurka" -- doesn't believe 2-1=5.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Dec 9th, 2011 at 09:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't realize the wingers were using that argument, but yes, watching the shock doctrine, under the control of Frau Merkozy, crater the EZ/EU isn't much fun. Perhaps it compares to what Bush/Obama have done for human rights globally, and when you add Clinton, while enabling the global banking scandal.

I'm too depressed to see clearly.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Dec 10th, 2011 at 04:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, the polarization of society into competing idiocies has made it clear that i can't see clearly at all, so thanks for helping me clean the lenses.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sat Dec 10th, 2011 at 04:27:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then again, frau merkel doesn't bring hope and change around the world by assassination from the skies. so it's likely not at all an "oh, please" moment.

but i'm still too busy bei einkaufs Samstag to put it all in perspective.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Dec 10th, 2011 at 05:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not going to argue on human rights abuses between Bush/Obama and Merkel, but holy shit, CH, if Bush is your standard then you're not worthy of lecturing anybody.

However, instead of wrongly assassinating tens or hundreds (I don't know how many) of alleged terrorists and taking out innocent civilians in the process, Merkel will instead bring hope and change to millions of southern Europeans by throwing them into the streets and gutting their (already-less-generous) welfare states.

Then there's Libya, where the morally righteous Germans were perfectly happy to stand around looking at the ceiling as Gaddafi prepared to level Benghazi.

And then, in a classic show of Merkelist attitudes, they made demands of the rebels.  The national motto ought to be "We're There When We Need You" as long as that clown is Chancellor

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Dec 10th, 2011 at 07:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not fighting your judgement of Merkel or German economists at all. (and i don't know what court cases regarding your own stimulus you're talking about, so can't comment.)

But you're holding up NATO deposing that dictator as some standard of international aid? (I didn't support germany's position either.)

And it's not about a few hundred targeted assassinations, it's the entire complex of amurka thumbing it's nose at international law. I'm not sure saviour status regarding Libya can be compared to ignoring international treaties.

i don't defend her policies to the EZ/EU in the slightest, but you seem to forget that she's not acting alone, and some of the key players are amurkan. Does the IMF bear some responsibility as well, for throwing millions of s. europeans into the street? Do amurkan banks?

And since we're discussing throwing millions into the streets, would you wish to debate amurka's role in stopping progress on climate issues, which its own military calls the greatest threat to world peace? That is not as immediate as Greece, but has far, far greater global repercussions, the solution of which is past immediate. and one can't even have an adult debate on the subject in amurka, much less a policy that looks somewhat intelligent.

Merkozy is a piece of shit for destroying Yurp, no question, but my points weren't originally intended to argue as if the Eurozone crisis is happening in a vacuum.

(Also, would you explain to me what you mean that if Bush is my standard, i'm not worthy of lecturing anybody? He and Cheney did occupy that office for 8 years, with consequences the entire world is stull suffering under.... but i don't understand what you're getting at.)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat Dec 10th, 2011 at 03:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Ana´s Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sat Dec 10th, 2011 at 03:57:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the IMF bear some responsibility as well, for throwing millions of s. europeans into the street?

The IMF is providing political cover for the ECB. The extraordinary thing is that the IMF is playing good cop to the EU/ECB bad cop.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 12th, 2011 at 09:29:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany's political psychopaths are no where near as dangerous as the amurkan version, nor as effective. Nor is the population so sheeple-like. (I'm not saying it's good here, but it ain't near as bad.)

Because it's possible to ring-fence Germany and see the damage as happening to "others". Extend "us" "here" to include the whole of the EU and the destruction is going to be quite bad, and quite widespread.

And the Bundesbank and the German Finance Ministry all the way back to Theo Weigel are responsible for much of this damage, especially ideologically and legally.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 12th, 2011 at 09:27:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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