Libya | 232 comments (232 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

well at least libya doesn't have much tourism industry to suffer the loss of.

france 24 shows many fleeing libya on foot across the tunisian border.

also that the bombings seemed random...

it's be cool to have an animation map of all these countries catching the changewave.

has the planet ever seen such a mass peeling away of bullshit in such a brief period?

and it still has shown no sign whatsoever of peaking.

too much bunga bunga?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 4)

Even with experienced pilots and Air-Ground fire direction control, which the regime doesn't have, tactical bombing of urban areas is an exercise in viciousness.

The regime has entered the same Twilight Zone Götterdämmerung the Nazis did under Hitler.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Depends on how you look at it. Country by country...perhaps not. But little chiefs who were allowed to twiddle in their little playgrounds until the empire that they governed for fell?

That would be a different answer, yes?

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

melo:

has the planet ever seen such a mass peeling away of bullshit in such a brief period?

I am reminded of both 1989 and 1848 (for somewhat different reasons).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

1848 seems to me the better point of comparison. 1989 was more of a collapse-of-empire style thing, similar to the British and French losing direct control of their colonies.

1968 might also be a proper good year to compare and contrast with. The viciousness is greater, but other than that there are similarities.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:08:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Yes, the geopolitical context is more 1848, but the style and programs more 1989. The strong nationalist component of 1848 is missing.

1968 is also interesting. First thing that strikes me is the expansion of higher education, that thus led to a generation with a record high (for its time) unemployed educated group.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

You mean 1989 didn't have a strong nationalist flavour? Now, I'll admit that I have not studied those uprisings in minute detail. But judging by what slithered out of the wreckage of the Soviet empire it would surprise me if there wasn't a strong nationalist undercurrent at play there as well.

Also, we don't know yet what precise mix of leftists and rightists, nationalists and pan-Arabists, secularists and sectarians is involved in the current crop of uprisings. And it's likely to be a different mix in different countries.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Good point about 1989. What I meant was that in 1848 it was not so much of an undercurrent as a principal point on equal standing with democracy. And it was a nationalism that often did not match the existing borders. The break-up of Russia did feature those though.

What I am getting at is that if this was 1848 the Tahrir crowd would have been demanding "Mubarak out and lets get a Pan-Arab congress" or "Mubarak out and lets conquer our lost territories in Gaza". Or at least that is my impression.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 03:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I certainly see that point. But to me it still looks like a 1968 type conflict using 1848 tactics: A coalition of labour and liberal intellectuals - with varying relative strength depending on the country you are looking at. Going up against regimes that never read the 20th century playbook for how to contain popular uprisings, and therefore responded with 1848-style repression. Plus a dose of pre-modern tribal conflict thrown in for good measure, in the countries where such social units still exist in strength.

1989 was much more of a "collapsing empire can't hang on to its tributaries" thing. In that sense, 1989 is more similar to the late '90s to early '00s anticolonial movement in Latin America.

(Incidentally, an important reason the 1989 colonial revolts didn't feature as much squabbling over borders was probably that Europe had spent the 141 years since 1848 shedding blood, tears and treasure in the effort to create ethnically "pure" states.)

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 04:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Libya | 232 comments (232 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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