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In the previous thread, we discussed the failure of the emergency diesel generators that would have been needed for the cooling system to work properly, and more broadly active safety systems and their vulnerability. One news channel's news crawler now says that the emergency generators were damaged by the tsunami. If so, this is a safe design rather than maintenance issue; but I don't know if I should trust the source.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 03:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I had seen various reports that the generators operated for an hour after the earthquake.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ive read that the next round of upgrades to international safety standards was due to cover flooding from earthquakes, but it was always something that had been considered a low probability.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 05:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The probaility is usually something like 1 to the power of minus 9... until it is 1. :p

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:01:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well
Note to self: don't build a nuclear reactor buy a wooden house on a coastal floodplain near a nuclear reactor on an island where they have a special word for 'a giant wave caused by earthquakes'.


So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:13:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean 10 to the power of minus nine... otherwise it's always 1.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes of course, seems I lost a zero there.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 07:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what's a zero or nine among friends?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh. Years ago when ET had the big nuclear debates, I had a hard time getting across with an argument that risk/benefit assessments are based on the assumption that most risks of relevance are known enough to be quantified (f.e. here).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me the risks were known. Problem is that they were ignored.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 01:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or they gave their best-guess quantification ran the numbers and discovered using those figures gave them an answer they didn't like or want.  So they jiggered the figures until they got the answer they wanted.

Happens all the time.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 02:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have some first hand experience with that process. Fortunately it only involved some else's money -- which ended up being tied up much longer than "estimated".

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least the magnitude 9 earthquake, the 10 m tsunami, the combination of the two, and incompatible sockets for mobile generators were among the unforeseen risks.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:35:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I fail to comprehend is why they couldn't just hard-wire past the connectors. Torch some silver on the connection. It is not a Cat6 circuit.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, it's as if people had no improvisation skills. Then again, we once had a similar problem that cost us half a day, and the makeshift solution was not something for occupational safety inspectors...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 03:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read that frequences (50 and 60) were not compatible, as different standards are used in Japanese industries.
by das monde on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 03:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Were the only portable generators available 60Hz US units? Does Japan not make diesel emergency generators?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have read elsewhere that Japan is divided into two regions with incompatible 50Hz and 60Hz standards.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:28:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's in the TEPCO reports (which I can't access at the moment): 2:46 pm to 3:41 pm the generators worked. However, that doesn't exclude some unspecified damage to the generators as the cause for failure. Say, something was bent or there was oil loss and it took an hour for the bearings of the machines to jam or something.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, both of us ignored something: the tsunami didn't hit at the same time as the earthquake...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Tsunami, Japan's Seawalls Were No Security - NYTimes.com
Peter Yanev, one of the world's best-known consultants on designing nuclear plants to withstand earthquakes, said the seawalls at the Japanese plants could not handle tsunami waves of the height that struck them. But the diesel generators were situated in a low spot on the assumption that the walls were high enough to protect against any likely tsunami.

That turned out to be a fatal miscalculation. The tsunami walls either should have been built higher, or the generators should have been place on higher ground to withstand potential flooding, he said.

As one who used to be in charge of installing emergency diesel generators in industrial plants and oil/gas rigs (that was long ago!), I can say emergency diesel generators are highly vulnerable. They must be located in safe places and well protected, and that includes the diesel fuel storage tanks and supply lines, the air intake system, the electric and/or compressed air starting devices, the batteries, the engine cooling system as well as the electric and electronic devices that are supposed to automatically start them and connect them to the pumps whenever there is a power shortage and to pilot them. So if they were flooded, there was no chance they could run for long.

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet

by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fairness to the Japanese, in the placement of generators, tsunamis aren't the only concern to take into account. There is the earthquake itself (generator atop a building that may collapse?), and there are typhoons.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, but you can have a specific, earthquake-proof building for the emergency generators. Actually, it seems that few buildings did collapse following the earthquake. At least the nuclear power plants buildings did not.

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet
by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention potential Godzillas, Mothras, etc. I mean, who the heck did the disaster probability calculations, anyway???
by asdf on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And they have to be regularly tested and maintained over the many, many years until they are needed.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 13th, 2011 at 08:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If failing generators are the actual problem... it looks like shutting down all reactors immediately was not the best strategy in this particular case. The reactors themselves withstood the earthquake fine apparently. From today's point of view, keeping a reactor half-running and pumping cooling to the others looks less risky. But surely, that would make the design and the decision protocol so much more complicated.
by das monde on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 12:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the oil rigs/plants, the rule was to run the emergency generators everyday for half an hour.

"People only accept change when they are faced with necessity, and only recognize necessity when a crisis is upon them." - Jean Monnet
by Melanchthon on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 03:24:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would think that the emergency generators must be run at least once a week for a long enough time for the engines to get up to full working temperature.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wouldnt surprise me to find that in theory they have to have at least one of the emergency generators running at all time.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Mar 14th, 2011 at 12:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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