A second week of Japanese disaster | 322 comments (322 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Extremely high radiation found in soil
Japanese authorities have detected a concentration of a radioactive substance 1,600 times higher than normal in soil at a village, 40 kilometers away from the troubled nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture.

The disaster task force in Fukushima composed of the central and local governments surveyed radioactive substances in soil about 5 centimeters below the surface at 6 locations around the plant from last Friday through Tuesday.

The results announced on Wednesday show that 163,000 becquerels of radioactive cesium-137 per kilogram of soil has been detected in Iitate Village, about 40 kilometers northwest of the plant.

For scale, the limits for c-137 in meat are 600-1,000 Bq/kg.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 08:55:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

I heard an estimate of that Fukushima is spewing 5% of what Chernobyl did.

by das monde on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 08:56:16 AM EST
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Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

NHK WORLD English

High-level radiation in Fukushima water
High-levels of radiation have been detected in tap water at municipalities across Fukushima Prefecture, where the troubled Dai-ichi nuclear power plant is located.

Water sampled in Iitate village on Sunday contained 965 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per liter, more than 3 times the government safety limit of 300 becquerels per liter.

Water sampled in Tamura city last Thursday contained 348 becquerels of iodine, but the level was down to 161 becquerels 2 days later.

Water from 4 other cities in the prefecture had iodine levels above the 100-becquerel per liter safety limit for infants as of Monday.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:05:18 AM EST
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Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Neutron beam observed 13 times at crippled Fukushima nuke plant | Kyodo News

Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Wednesday it has observed a neutron beam, a kind of radioactive ray, 13 times on the premises of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant after it was crippled by the massive March 11 quake-tsunami disaster.
TEPCO, the operator of the nuclear plant, said the neutron beam measured about 1.5 kilometers southwest of the plant's No. 1 and 2 reactors over three days from March 13 and is equivalent to 0.01 to 0.02 microsieverts per hour and that this is not a dangerous level.
The utility firm said it will measure uranium and plutonium, which could emit a neutron beam, as well.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (4.00 / 2)

Say what!?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

ditto

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:31:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Perhaps the reactor vessels are turning into pulsars or quasars?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Neutron beam observed 13 times at crippled Fukushima nuke plant | Kyodo News

In the 1999 criticality accident at a nuclear fuel processing plant run by JCO Co. in Tokaimura, Ibaraki Prefecture, uranium broke apart continually in nuclear fission, causing a massive amount of neutron beams.
In the latest case at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, such a criticality accident has yet to happen.
But the measured neutron beam may be evidence that uranium and plutonium leaked from the plant's nuclear reactors and spent nuclear fuels have discharged a small amount of neutron beams through nuclear fission.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:31:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Id want timings as to when that occurred

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 1)

I'd like a better description of what was actually measured and how.

Plus "a neutron beam" is not "a radioactive beam".

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:44:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

To paraphrase the automated USGS eartquake reports: this news item doesn't appear to have been reviewed by a nuclear physicist :P

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:37:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

It's likely the translator's fault.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:13:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

That is not an apt comparison as meat is ingested.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Well, it's what plants take up from it what can be ingested.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Yes, but what fraction of what's in the soil is taken by plants?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:12:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Well, enough for spinach to be withdrawn from markets.

Groundwater is also interesting.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Yes, 3 times "normal", as opposed to 1600 times "normal" in the soil.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

3 times the safety limit, not "normal".

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:26:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (4.00 / 2)

Plants also absorb, through their leaves, particles falling on them as dust or especially in rainfall. So leafy vegetables - the leaves of which we eat - are particularly sensitive from the human health point of view, which is why spinach has been withdrawn.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

But the withdrawal of the spinach is not a consequence of the topsoil contamination. Both are consequences of falling radioactive dust.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

With rainfall, I should think. The news item up there speaks of 5cm below the surface. (Did they choose that depth, did they also analyse surface dust, I don't know). But one would expect particles to have been washed below the surface by rain. Plants would be absorbing by roots and leaves.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 1)

theres a piece in the Chernobyl documentary that talks about the Caesium sinking 5cm a year down through the soil.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:35:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Wait, so after 30 years it's not only decayed by half but also sunk under 1.5m of soil?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

I don't know the particular chemistry of caesium, but there's a general tendency for molecules to leach down gradually with rainwater. The more permeable the soil type, the quicker it happens.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 1)

The activity of Caesium-137 is 440 TBq/mole. So 186kBq/kg of Cs-137 in topsoil is 4.227 10^-10moles of Cs-137 in a Kg of topsoil.

Let's see, a banana contains about 0.01 moles of potassium and t

So, if you replaced all the potassium in a banana with radioactive caesium you would have 4TBq. The limit you quote for meat, by weight, would be about 100Bq for a banana. So a "safe" banana can have no more than 2.5e-11 moles of Cs-137 per mole of potassium.

If you grow vegetables in topsoil contaminated with Caesium-137, at what rate does the Caesium replace the Potassium?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:54:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603856/pdf/yjbm00642-0078.pdf

To the extent that rubidium or cesium are capable of substituting for
potassium in biochemical and biophysical processes one would expect that
these ions would be at least a temporary nutritional substitute for potassium.
Thus, it has been shown that rubidium and, to a lesser extent, cesium
can replace potassium as an essential nutrient for the growth of bacteria,"1'53
yeast," sea urchin eggs,' and rats." ' Young rats immediately cease growing
on a potassium-free but otherwise adequate diet and usually die within
a few weeks. The addition of rubidium to the diet will permit almost normal
growth to occur for one or two weeks before the animals sicken again and
die. To a more limited degree cesium is also capable of substituting for
potassium in this way." ' Characteristic lesions develop in the kidneys and
in the skeletal and cardiac muscles of potassium-depleted animals." The
addition of rubidium or cesium to the diet will prevent these changes' and
if they have already developed, the feeding of these elements will rapidly
effect a cure.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 11:05:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

ceebs:

To the extent that rubidium or cesium are capable of substituting for
potassium in biochemical and biophysical processes one would expect that
these ions would be at least a temporary nutritional substitute for potassium.

Yes, but what is the extent of biochemical substitution?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 11:06:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Wish I had full access to Academic journals,

Transfer of radioactive caesium from soil to veget... [Environ Pollut. 1989] - PubMed result From here, and just from the abstract it appears that the uptake depends on the potassium levels in the soil, In uplands grass it appears that The relative uptake depends on the dryness of the soil, the dryer, the better the relative uptake of potassium, (Which doesn't sound good for a country with a rice diet)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 11:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Tangentially - how much would it cost to get ET access to JSTOR? is there a free community option? (He wrote, optimistically.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

JSTOR: Options for Access to JSTOR

Options for Access to JSTOR
JSTOR is available at more than 6,000 participating institutions.
If you are affiliated with a participating institution and are unable to access content in JSTOR:
You may need to login at your library first. Check the list of participating institutions for a login link, visit your library's web site, or contact your library for assistance.
Your institution may not license the specific collection that contains the article. Check with your library for help locating this article through another source.
If you are not affiliated with a participating institution:
We have a geographic list of participating institutions, to help you find a participating library near you. Many libraries offer walk-in access to electronic databases.
Many articles in JSTOR are also available for purchase or available through individual subscriptions with participating publishers.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Ive not heard of one, although my knowledge is a couple of years out of date. We were talking about a new login system which would have allowed access in any university facilities anywhere in the country when i was last involved, but how far that has got, I don't know. Probably the easiest way is to sign up for an Open University course and get access through their library (I know theyre a subscriber but processes for getting access through them isnt something I know about)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:25:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

You may be thinking of eduroam. We have it, and it lets you get online from any participating institution using your home institution's login. Hopefully you can then access your own institution's library, but I doubt it will let you do any more than that.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

there were talks of allowing more than that, but as I said my knowledge of where that was heading is (Thinking about it) Three years out of date

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

There's an yearly access fee to JSTOR itself and then each collection has an yearly access fee.

At a quick glance we're talking around $10,000/yr.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 01:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

I find this: Chernobyl: country by country A - H

Clooth, G. and Aumann, D.C. (1990). Environmental transfer parameters and radiological impact of the Chernobyl fallout in and around Bonn. J. Environ. Radioactivity. 12(2). pg. 97-120.
Bonn escaped significant Chernobyl fallout.¹³⁷Cs to 1,383 Bq/m² (highest of six locations).
Geometric mean for soil-to-plant concentration factor for¹³⁷Cs into pasture = 4.2 x 10^-2 (concentration of radionuclides in plant, wet weight, divided by concentration of radionuclides in soil, dry weight.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 24th, 2011 at 05:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Same source, on transfer into meat rather than plant:

Chernobyl: country by country S-Z

Rosen, K., Andersson, I. and Lonsjo, H. (1995). Transfer of radiocesium from soil to vegetation and to grazing lambs in a mountain area in northern Sweden. J. Environ. Radioactivity. 26. pg. 237-257.
"Activity analyses of soil samples,... showed a mean deposition of¹³⁷Cs of 15.7 (range 14.1-17.6) kBq/m²." (pg. 237).
¹³⁷Cs concentration of the herbage cut at the various sites decreased with time from 1,175 to 900 Bq/kg dry weight." (pg. 237).
"The average¹³⁷Cs concentration in the abdomen wall muscle of lamb carcasses was 1,087, 668, 513 and 597 Bq/kg wet weight in the years 1990-1993 respectively..." (pg. 237).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 24th, 2011 at 05:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

DoDo:

163,000 becquerels of radioactive cesium-137 per kilogram of soil has been detected in Iitate Village, about 40 kilometers northwest of the plant

Rad Pro Calculator: Free Online Gamma Activity, Dose Rate and Shielding Calculator

0.163 MBq of Cs-137 at 1 Meters = 0.0124 μSv/h

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 09:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

You calculated the radiation exposure of someone standing 1 m away from a clump of 1 kg of topsoil with air in-between. IMHO that's a less meaningful comparison than meat.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:25:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A second week of Japanese disaster (none / 0)

Uh, you eat soil?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 23rd, 2011 at 10:28:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A second week of Japanese disaster | 322 comments (322 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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