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France Wants EU Nuclear Checks to Exclude Plane Crashes, Terror - Bloomberg.com

March 29 (Bloomberg) -- France, which gets 80 percent of its energy from atomic power, wants threats from airplane crashes and terrorists excluded from safety checks planned on European reactors following the Fukushima nuclear accident

"If they are included then this can't be called `lessons learned from Japan,'" Andre-Claude Lacoste, head of the Autorite de Surete Nucleaire, said today in an interview after a briefing in Paris. "I will do what I can to keep risks from planes and terrorism out of the audits."

The Autorité de Sûreté Nucléaire was set up as an independent monitoring agency, but I don't see how we can avoid noting its utter dependency on the French nuclear industry.

See, it's time to decide that nuclear in Europe is safe and has little to learn from Fukushima. As for plane crashes and terrorist attacks, we'll wait for them to happen before running stress tests and learning "lessons from plane crashes and terrorist attacks".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:49:34 AM EST
Just like Germany wanted the banking stress tests to include sovereign defaults.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
eurogreen:
let the market take care of it! (none / 1) Let's see. How about this : the IAEA gifts radiation emission permits to all nuclear utilities, and these can be freely traded.
Couple that with the bogus stress tests and we're set. The radiation risk has been managed.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean exclude, not include.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 06:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France Wants EU Nuclear Checks to Exclude Plane Crashes, Terrorist Attacks - Bloomberg
"If they are included then this can't be called `lessons learned from Japan,'" Andre-Claude Lacoste, head of the Autorite de Surete Nucleaire, said today in an interview after a briefing in Paris. "I will do what I can to keep risks from planes and terrorism out of the audits."
Really, WTF!?

So call the exercise something else.

The lesson learned from Japan is not that nukes are vulnerable to tsunamis, but that active cooling is a huge vulnerability.

So, let's see... If saboteurs cur external power and disable the water pumps and emergency generators, it's not the same failure mode as Fukushima?

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:59:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Before we consider other predictable threats, we'll wait until they happen. That works.

However, if we are foolish enough to be on record arguing against the consideration of the case that occurred, we may not get away with saying

Who Could Have Predicted?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the other lesson they might learn is that storing the semi-spent rods right next to the fusion reactor is a bad move.

natch the alternatives of shipping them crosscountry to some central repository, or having lots of local mini-dumps aren't too groovy either.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 07:39:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:

So, let's see... If saboteurs cur external power and disable the water pumps and emergency generators, it's not the same failure mode as Fukushima?

Or if a suicide-crow flies into a switchgear. Like what apparently happened at Forsmark in 2007. Oh, and recent leaks have shown that security analysis after the incident showed risk at a level of one meltdown per 52 reactor-years, instead of the supposed one per 10 000.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 07:59:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah so as we're having four here, we'll be safe for another 200 years obviously.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 08:05:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who Could Have Predicted?
There it is : the admission that his job is not ensuring nuclear safety, but ensuring the continued viability of nuclear power in France.

We're going to have fun with this. I hope he's got a nice industry job to go to if he should be forced to resign.

(well actually, I'm confident he has...)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think ceebs in another thread had linked to a typewritten memo from the 1970's in which a US regulator said he agreed with the assessment that "wet containment" was flawed but that so much effort had been expended on convincing everyone that it was safe that reopening the issue would be the death of commercial nuclear power.

But I can't find the comment - it's like googling a needle in a haystack.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 06:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't remember it, but in looking on google I've come across a pdf on the effects of wet chloride insulation on the pipework of nuclear merchant ships. In notes it appears that one reason for purity of water is to prevent electrochemical reactions on inside of pipework between different materials, rather than just to avoid irradiation of dissolved minerals.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 06:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
May have been ARG or asdf...

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 06:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not me, I think...
by asdf on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 09:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that comment was in one of the first two threads and was by a (former?) GE engineer or a regulator. I think it was in the discussion of why he resigned. I did not post it though I may have commented on it. But you are correct in stating that we have created quite a haystack.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:03:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Still looking for the needle, though:

ceebs:

in 1971 the Atomic Energy Commission did a series of tests of Emergency Core Cooling systems. Accidents were simulated. In each case the emergency systems worked - but the water failed to fill the core. Often being forced out under pressure.

As one of the AEC scientists says in the film:

"We discovered that our theoretical calculations didn't have a strong correlation with reality. But we just couldn't admit to the public that all these safety systems we told you about might not do any good"

And again the warnings were ignored by senior members of the Agency and the industry.

ceebs:
Dale Bridenbaugh said the "Mark 1" design had "not yet been designed to withstand the loads" that could be experienced in a large-scale accident.

"At the time, I didn't think the utilities were taking things seriously enough," Bridenbaugh, now retired, said in a phone interview. "I felt some of the plants should have been shut down while the analysis was completed, and GE and the utilities didn't want to do that, so I left."

Bridenbaugh said that to the best of his knowledge, the design flaws he had identified were addressed at the Daiichi plant, requiring "a fairly significant expense."



So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:36:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah now I remember

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here, it was ceebs. But this via das monde is also relevant.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the one
September 25, 1972: memo from Joseph Hendrie (top safety official at AEC) agrees with recommendation but rejects it saying it "could well mean the end of nuclear power..."


So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:38:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
!? That's the same I link to.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 12:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying it isn't, just bringing the link to this thread.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 01:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
"If they are included then this can't be called `lessons learned from Japan,'" Andre-Claude Lacoste, head of the Autorite de Surete Nucleaire, said today in an interview after a briefing in Paris.
So call them "safety review on the occasion of Fukushima I's 40th birthday".

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 06:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. the ASN actually has a decent record (all things considered and relative) of being independent from EDF

  2. the EPR has been designed to withstand a major plane crash accident (but then again, maybe the existing reactors haven't - why would they, plane terrorism was not yet a big thing in the 60s and 70s, ...)


Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 08:07:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EDF went after "Sortir du nucléaire" when they leaked documents about this vulnerability a couple of years ago.

Clearly it's a show-stopper if it were made to be a requirement, because none (0) of the the French reactors are up to it [personal knowledge]. I have no idea of the cost of retro-fitting some sort of massive exclusion dome over the existing reactors, but I guess it's non-trivial.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 08:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PWR's should not be that damaged by air crashes as they have their spent fuel pools inside the containment dome. Test have been made with fighter jets on rocket sleds. It's worse with BWR's (except Mark III containments) where the spent fuel pools are outside the containment. But all the French plants are PWR's, which make these comments from the ASN somewhat puzzling.  

An airliner is essentially a long thin tube of aluminum, with the only solid part being the jet engines, but even they should not do more than marginal damage to the containment dome.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 03:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The containment dome doesn't have to be penetrated to cause damage to the equipment inside.  See wikipedia discussion on spall.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 03:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm previously only aware of spalling issues when discussing armored vehicles. :)

But I can't see how spalling would damage the reactor, if we're not talking about huge chunks of concrete falling down into the water, crushing the reactor "top shield", and then continuing down, entering the reactor tank itself and crushing the core. I find that very, very hard to believe.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:07:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm neither an Mechanical, Materials, or Nuclear Engineer.

All I know is spalling happens on impact.  What spall damage would result from a 747 weighing 377,842 kg, carrying 199,158 liters of aviation fuel, traveling at ~900 km/h would to the equipment & etc. inside the containment dome is outside my competence.  I think it is safe to say, despite my ignorance, the exterior and interior damage to the dome would be greater than caused by a Cessna 207 weighing 1,500 kg, flying at  280 km/h.

But don't quote me!  :-)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The leaked German study on vulnerability to airplane crashes names release of radioactivity due to falling concrete as the smaller risk, and an airplane fuel fire inside the containment as the bigger one. Then you can get to a zirconium fire.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see how jet fuel could enter the containment without breaching the containment dome, which I find it hard to believe would happen.

Spent fuel problems in a BWR is another much greater problem in this scenario. As a matter of fact, I remember how I asked about that very thing on a field-trip to the nuclear plant Forsmark when I was like 17. The guide/expert answered that there was no risk to the reactor if a jet-liner would crash in it, but the spent fuel pools were something else. Then he looked a bit troubled.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
breaching the containment dome, which I find it hard to believe would happen.

This is not a question of faith...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is not. I would love to see a study done on this issue.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Should I translate relevant parts of the leaked German study I referred to?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The leaked memo is here, however, it is more conclusions than details of the simulations, so I rather do a summary.

  • Two independent institutions did simulations, both on Konvoi-type reactors with 180 cm thick protection. One simulation tested three types of passenger jets (B-747, A-320, A-340-600) with various speeds and directions of impact, no such details for the other.
  • Both simulations showed that the Konvoi-type containment would crack but would not allow kerosene in, but the second simulation made an exception for an impact at the rim of the top and sides. Only impacts on the valve compartment would knock out the cooling system, and the control systems would be knocked out, especially of the emergency control room would be hit.
  • Both research groups said that based on these results, the containment of the plants older than the three of the Konvoi class can be assumed unfit to resist an impact even without detailed studies. (These reactors have no protection hull or concrete hulls of 40 to 120 cm thickness.)

The document makes the explicit conclusion that 'the retrofitting of the older reactor buildings is not possible resp. doesn't make sense from technical resp. economic considerations'. Instead they recommend counter-measures in the airplane cabins, and obstacles in the line of flight (concrete pillars).

Meanwhile, I also found a page on another study, the safety of spent fuel storage rooms. It found that one type, which has 1.2 m thick walls, would resist impact, but that of another type, with 70 or 85 cm thick walls and 55 cm thick roof, would not resist impact, however kerosene would supposedly flow out via channels.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 04:35:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Duplicate deleted.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An airliner is essentially a long thin tube of aluminum, with the only solid part

Meh. It's not the solidness, it's the kinetic energy. After the WTC and Pentagon crashes, this should be common knowledge.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the WTC had been 50 metres tall and surrounded by a metre thick wall of reinforced concrete, I believe the result might have been quite different.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you'd have only have received a hole similar to that in the Pentagon?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the Pentagon had been sorrounded by a metre thick wall of reinforced concrete, I believe that outcome would also have been somewhat different.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about the WC, but in the Pentagon crash, several 14-inch (35.56 cm) concrete columns were destroyed by the impact deep into the building.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 05:39:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah, but that was by an alien deathray, not an aeroplane.
by njh on Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 07:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I get 0.5*400tonne*(900km/hour)^2 = 2.7 tonne tnt

Not tiny, but not huge either.  Fully laden, the fuel tanks contain pretty much exactly 2 kilotonnes tnt, but it's not clear how that energy would couple to a building.

by njh on Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 07:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
the ASN actually has a decent record

Then it's a pity Lacoste has said that he will fight over this issue, when his job is to fight in favour of the general public interest.

That goes on the "not decent record" side of the balance, surely?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 08:53:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a rather silly comment for the regulator to make at this juncture.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 11:29:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I recall reading that a US reactor design was designed to be safe against the crash of a Cessna light aircraft but not a jumbo-jet. Of course they tout its safety against airplane crashes, without discussing the size. I suppose the GE BWR design at Fukushima is safe against the crash of a radio-controlled model aircraft, but what if it were carrying a stick of dynamite?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fukushima was safe against a 5m tsunami, too.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:28:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Airplane crashes first became a concern when there was a series of fighter jet crashes. The oldest plants in Europe are still unsafe against even a small plane.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
are safe against a Cessna or a Mirage.

My guess is that they looked at the statistics of air crashes, found that these two classes were by far the most frequent in France (and not too expensive to protect against), and ignored other classes, too rare to bother with.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 11:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially if that was prior to 9/11/01 but it is equally conceivable that they just decided "that won't happen here."

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 02:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One chapter in a book I'm never going to write will discuss the epistemic and Decision Making failures of relying on the combination of statistical mechanics and Excluded Middle Logics for analyzing dynamic systems.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 03:29:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Make that a diary.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:14:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It occurs I could write a significant part of the book as a series of diaries.  

Need to think on it.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 04:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The journalist who wrote this, Tara Patel, has told me by e-mail that André-Claude Lacoste spoke to her exclusively when she asked him some questions after a briefing. So these remarks were on the record, but have not gone the French media rounds.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 31st, 2011 at 01:54:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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