The End of the European Dream | 276 comments (274 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 4)

So, how strong will the Euro be after defaults by Greece, Ireland and Portugal, if it can be held to those countries? It would seem conceivable that the banks and their debtors could be immolated but that the currency could survive, even if everyone up to and including Germany defaults. But the problem is that none will go that route. It is starting to look like the choice is between the EU and the Euro on the one hand or the banks and their un-payable debts on the other.

Looks to me like we are eleven years late on a millennial Jubilee.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 07:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 8)

It's clear to me (and i'm not sure why or how it's clear) that the underlying value of what's actually produced in both the Euro zone and the EU is going to prove its worth. Equally clear, that the trouble with Euro zone banks is going to be resolved, buzz cuts included, as part of the package.

i'm not Migeru, so i can't cite chapter and verse, but i'm clear that it will be here in the Euro zone that the first attempt at ending the piracy (Raubtier Kapitalismus; predatory capitalism) will be joined. Because one thing is obvious, it's here in Yurp that the curtain has been pulled.

Merkel's antics, the strange to fathom emergence of the IMF as the lesser of two evils, the strange public revelation from DSK regarding Pompandreou's discussions, the strange public revelation of Geithner's veto, all point to a serious breakdown of the "system." Or perhaps the transparent street bean shill of the bank "stress tests." Or the naked capitulation of the PES.

We can't ever forget that here in Yurp, however haltingly, is the attempt at a sustainable civilization, which must now include a reworked understanding of economics, already begun.

I mean we have the only truly functioning sustainable industries outside of China, and for a short while, we still have the technical advantage over them... though that won't last long. But they will have other problems, as their environmental problems overwhelm their economy, so on balance, we're as good to go as any.

Not sure why i post this emotional analysis when such diligent background data remains necessary, perhaps because i watched Goethe tonight, but i know i'm on it. i just don't know how, exactly.

i used to tell people it's all easy to fix, you just have to decide where you want to be in twenty years, and i mean exactly. Then it's simply a matter of discerning the steps backwards from that agreed upon point, until you arrive at what you must first do today.

Or maybe not. But what the hell. Geronimo!

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 09:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 4)

Oh yeah, there's also the point about why "the market" has been fixated on attacking Euro economies, while ignoring the impending disaster within.

Though i guess that's typical of parasite tunnel vision.

(Dammit, it's 3:15am, so i missed first pitch, as the Giants go for their second win inaro against the 1st place Rockies... jeez, baseball begins late in Yurp. How can we survive with such time inequity?)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 09:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 6)

I'm sure the attacks on the Euro economies are just coincidence.

Although if they weren't, what would it say about "the markets" if it turned out they were willing to make millions unemployed, homeless and impoverished in order to avoid tighter financial regulation and a possible end to the multi-decade party?

Elsewhere, we seem to have run into the problem that Europe means different things to different people. On ET we'd like to think it means civilised inquiry, intellectual curiosity, pragmatic as opposed to ideological empathy and enlightened democracy.

But what was the original vision? Does anyone know? I remember it being a "common market" - which doesn't bode well. Was it ever supposed to be more than that?

The question is only passingly relevant because - clearly - it could be more than that. But making it more than that means pushing against "the markets", the exploiters, the financial criminals, the petty populist nation-state tribalists, and the tragicomical media despots like Berlusconi and Murdoch.

Having the vision isn't bad. Not being able to achieve the vision - yet - isn't entirely bad.

It would be worse if the vision didn't exist at all.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun May 8th, 2011 at 08:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

But what was the original vision? Does anyone know? I remember it being a "common market" - which doesn't bode well. Was it ever supposed to be more than that?

The whole European Union thing was a gambit by starry-eyed politicians who had succeeded, with the Single European Act, in establishing a complete single market with free movement of capital, goods, services and people.

The starry-eyed politicians came up with Schengen and the Euro and the Common Foreign and Security Policy and the Cooperation in Justice and Home Affairs, and voila, the European Economic Community became the "first pillar" of the European Union.

See wikipedia, as usual...

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

"Starry-eyed"? Piffle. Go read history. Almost all of the politicians of the time - at least until the 80s - had personal experience of the horrors and inhumanity of WWII. You perhaps were told what Spain was like before the death of Franco in 75?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 3)

The point is that the European Union post-1990 may be described as a bad case of mission creep after the avowed goal was well and truly achieved.

Alternatively, it can be described as a visionary project by the likes of Delors, Kohl, Mitterrand and González, squandered by 20 years of petty nationalistic politicians without a vision.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 05:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 3)

I think you're forgetting the context of the fall of the USSR and of the Warsaw Pact regimes, and German Reunification. What you call "starry-eyed" or "visionary" was far from it: it was an attempt by European leaders coming to the end of their careers and seeing the dangers ahead, to lock European nations (above all Germany) into a tight pact that would conserve what had been constructed. I don't believe Mitterand or Delors, for example, saw the rules laid down then as a final achievement, some wonderful system that would last. They hoped and expected there would be further development, because it was necessary, and because the European project had always managed to move forward like that in the past. But what then happened was that neoliberal economics/politics took over completely and in fact, if anything, forced whatever change there was in the opposite direction. Resulting, above all, in what they feared: Germany dominating Europe and using Central Europe as its economic backyard.

What development of Europe, twenty years ago, would have avoided that, in your view?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 04:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

Writing sensible rules for the Eurozone in the Maastricht Treaty would have been a major plus.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 04:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 3)

What was written was what Germany would sign up to. And I continue to think the "leaders" of the time expected further development re economic governance. They were wrong. But my point is that they were not "visionary" or "starry-eyed" - more likely "worried" would be the word.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 05:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

Worried the club med would undermine German stability?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 05:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

afew:

what they feared: Germany dominating Europe and using Central Europe as its economic backyard.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 09:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 2)

What was written was what Germany would sign up to.

Then the Euro was a bad idea, and Maastricht sans EMU would have been a better treaty.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 09:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 2)

The euro with no further evolution in terms of economic governance has now been shown to have been a bad idea.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 09:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

Or perhaps it was a good idea inadequately implemented, and the problem now is that the political environment has now changed so much in a bad way that demonstrable problems cannot be fixed any longer. A resurgent German nationalism seems to have paralysed the EU. But if there were a coherent alternative majority on the Council, Germany could be outvoted. So perhaps the spinelessness of the rest of Europe is as much to blame.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 3)

You cannot build a system that deliberately favours the most powerful player and then expect that it will be reformed to something better in the future. That is, well, "starry-eyed idealism" is a term that comes immediately to mind.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 4)

The same mistake made at Bretton Woods, and for exactly the same reason, failing to solve exactly the same problem.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

The overwhelming dominance of one player?

It is very difficult for a political process/negotiation to solve that problem unless all the other payers have a united and coherent opposing position. So far the Eurozone crisis has seen a conspicuous lack of solidarity of anyone with or for anyone else. It's every member for themselves at the moment with the majority keeping their heads down and hoping not to have to get involved.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:38:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 2)

The problem is the macroeconomic instability resulting from the tendency of trade balances to grow more lopsided with time. The solution is the introduction of penalties on net exporters. The difficulty is that, until a crisis hits, there is no incentive to do anything, and after the crisis hits the exporter of last resort has everyone else over a barrel.

See: the US at Bretton Woods, China at the G20, Germany in the Euro.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 11:03:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

If you think Mitterand and Delors were starry-eyed idealists, have a bag of salmiak on me ;)

More than anyone seems to want to recognize in this discussion, the rapid fall of Communism redrew the map of Europe and forced them into an attempt to tighten the bolts on the European superstructure. I don't know to what extent they believed it would really work. Maybe I should try to see if Delors has said anything of late. Mitterand, apparently, is silent.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:39:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

Hmm, time to revisit Reunification - some history rewriting where Jerome downplayed claims that Mitterrand feared reunification, or DoDo's "We'd better take down the wall ourselves".

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 11:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

afew:

My memory from that time is also that Mitterand feared reunification but was resigned to it - and negotiated with Kohl to get stronger European integration, particularly wrt the common currency, as the price of his support.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 11:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 4)

Maybe the Convergence Criteria and the Growth and Stability Pact were macroeconomic nonsense, and lately the ~~Competitiveness Pact~~ ~~Pact for the Euro~~ Euro-Plus Pact is just ideological shock doctrine.

Without a negative feedback mechanism for limiting the growth of internal trade imbalances, and with arbitrary constraints on fiscal policy and an ideological prohibition of "printing money" the thing was primed for a blow-up. We're actually unfortunate that the global financial crisis started with the subprime crisis and acted as a trigger for the Eurozone crisis, allowing people to pretend that all was well with the Eurozone had it not been for contagion from across the Atlantic.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

Uh, didn't Germany write it?

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 09:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

Uh, did it?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 09:53:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

Didn't the German Finance Ministry design the Euro convergence criteria under Theo Weigel, and then later the Stability and Growth Pact?

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

They certainly had a lot of input (not particularly starry-eyed or visionary, btw), accepted by partners who wanted to tie them in. The expectation was that - as had happened before - there would be further moves towards "greater union" in terms of economic governance because everyone, the Germans included, would simply be forced into them by circumstances. But Germany stood by monetarism and moved towards mercantilism, and the whole continent got converted to marketista theology which prevented either right or left governments from reacting to that.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:24:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

Why did Germany "need to be tied in", and why into a monetary union?

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:29:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

To mitigate German hegemony...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 10:39:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

Then a monetary union is exactly the wrong tool.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 11:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

I think that people fail to understand that historic context is fundamental in all this mess.

Our grand-fathers had direct contact with the horrors of WWII, fascism and stalinism. That shapes a certain kind of individual.

Their mistake (and, it seems to me, the mistake of some here) was to forget that their descendants would be born in a completely (better) different world. Thus, a different kind of individual.

An individual breed in good times cannot easily foresee that it is shaping a path back to horror because (s)he does not know how such horror feels like.

I think a leader of the WWII generation would NEVER allow the current crisis to be shaped with a narrative of "nation versus nation" or "rich nations vs poor nations" or <put your national variant here>.

Sometimes the argument here seems to amount to "if we had the proper leaders, this would be alright". This is naive at best: (i) In a democracy we are bound to have, over time, leaders of different persuasions, it is not always the "old fashioned, historically sensitive, social democrat"; sometimes you get the "banker owned, ideology obsessed, short-sighted neo-liberal", this is NORMAL in a democracy. and (ii) we are having the generational leaders that know little about horrors.

This is why I think that the "European Dream" is turning into a "bloody nightmare": We Europeans designed (with good intention) a system that is too tight-coupled (think Portuguese bailout in the hands of Finnish parliament). We are too connected without sharing nothing resembling a "national identity". This is bound to be problematic in a time of crisis.

A more cautious approach would have serve us much better. It might not have been the utopia of a "united Europe", but would have avoided the problems that are coming (because they have not really started yet).

by cagatacos on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 08:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 2)

Given that there were about 20 years between the end of WWI and the beginning of WWII, it's possible that Europe's Founders had a sense of urgency and that they believed that a "cautious" approach would not have worked.

On the other hand, the whole thing started with a very limited and, indeed, "cautious" European Coal and Steel Community. The single market itself was already "mission creep". The "Founders" set a ball rolling and hoped that further integration would be inevitable.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:06:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 3)

The actual first attempt was of building a true common defence policy, which was truly ambitious and didn't happen as a result...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 10:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 2)

I wonder if the degree to which the wealthy arrange to skew the system in their favor depends in part on how close you get to social collapse. Massive banking failures in the USA in 1893 led to the federal reserve. Socialism the result of the great depression. European union after ww2. And conversely, 40 years of prosperity leads to a "let them eat cake" economic policy.

I hope this is not the case, because I would rather not have to cope with the social disruption it implies...

by asdf on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 08:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

I wonder if the degree to which the wealthy arrange to skew the system in their favor depends in part on how close you get to social collapse.

There is a relationship, but I think it is the reverse. The wealthy have to be protected from their basest instincts which are to skew the system so strongly to their interests that it is forced into collapse. They collectively seem incapable of accepting this, though many wealthy individuals do understand the relationship. The only satisfaction that gives is that those who understand the situation are better positioned to benefit from the collapse than those who deny the possibility or project the causes onto others.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 01:17:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 1)

Conversely, the vast majority of people also display little interest or engagement in politics so long as they are materially ok and sometimes care little for those who are not ok and who they then perceive as being a threat to their material security on a win:lose basis. It can be very hard to organise the disadvantaged even in support of their own vital interests, and even harder to organise support from those who feel they themselves are relatively ok.

For the wealthy engaging in politics can be a hobby or a pastime, a means of upward mobility, a career, or an insurance policy against "bad people" getting into power. Often they are wealthy because they have played the game well in their own interests.

So the general observation, that major political innovations come in response to catastrophic social failures holds true for both reasons - the dispossessed become more engaged and recognise their common interests in changing the system and the wealthy lose their grip in the social upheaval that follows.

Of course the trick, in a functioning democracy, is to provide mechanisms for ongoing non-violent change which reduce the risk of catastrophic failures and mass upheavals.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 05:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

But I would argue that the financial system and the process of financialization of the economy, while contributing mightily to the wealth accumulation of the already wealthy, and while embraced by them for that reason, also tends to make the system unstable, as the further "progress" of financialization requires the dismantling of regulatory regimes that protect the stability of the system.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 12:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 4)

I think we both come to the same conclusion via an intuitive gestalt. I posed a question to whch I believe I have the answer, but there are an enormous number of variables involved. But you are right that Europe has the underlying productive capability to survive. That is the actual capital. The capital markets are supposed to be a mirror of the actual, but they have been twisted into some version of a fun-house/house of horrors mirror.

The good news it that the capital markets are much more of a social construct than are the underlying capital assets. The bad news is that we don't know how quickly one very distorted mirror can be replaced by one that gives a better image. It will be a fight over myths and images. It is not as though there are not very powerful vested interests at work here that want to keep the existing system and just dial up the distortion. The problem is basically political. Unfortunately, the existing politicians are, almost uniformly, useless to actively harmful.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat May 7th, 2011 at 09:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (4.00 / 3)

Five years of recession-going-on-depression in the business layer can wreak havoc on the real economy and destroy the productive capacity which first stays idle and then is asset-stripped. The global financial crisis started in 2007 and the European crisis in late 2008. It's been 30 months already...

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:04:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yurp (4.00 / 2)

Agree. My sentiments to a T.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun May 8th, 2011 at 02:46:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (4.00 / 4)

Me four. I'm basically an optimist but can't find much rational basis for that insane optimism right now - except that Yurp has overcome even greater challenges in the past. The problem is that the EPP has become so dominant, and the PES so slavishly subservient to EPP talking points even EPP leaders don't really believe. When you look to the IMF dfor (relative) sanity, you know you have a problem...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun May 8th, 2011 at 03:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (4.00 / 4)

Has there ever been a socio-economic project as large as the European Union before? Half a billion people using (officially) 23 languages, and representing a diverse range of cultures.

While the evolution of the EU has taken place over 60 odd years, it was only in 1993 that the Single Market was born, with its 4 basic principles of the freedom of movement of people, goods, services and money. That was only 17 years ago: Europe is still a teenager (like the Internet).

Remarkably too, the EU is administered cost-effectively - contrary to popular opinion.

Enormous problems remain - that's what ET was set up to discuss. But problems have to be solved, and we are all part of that process. To me, the major task, deep down, is how to balance regulation with creative and cultural freedom.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun May 8th, 2011 at 05:15:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (4.00 / 4)

Oh, the EU is doing quite well, all things considered. At this point in the history of the US, they were fighting an acrimonious civil war. And it turned out to survive. So federations that survive often have constitutional crises that make this one look like kid's play.

But federations that do not survive also often have constitutional crises that do not even approach the severity of the current one.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun May 8th, 2011 at 05:45:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (4.00 / 4)

Has there ever been a socio-economic project as large as the European Union before? Half a billion people using (officially) 23 languages, and representing a diverse range of cultures.

India?

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:01:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (none / 0)

Good point - though it was more of a disunion project.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:40:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (none / 0)

Back in the days of the EU Constitution debate I suggested one should look at India and Switzerland as case studies in multilingual devolved democracy.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 05:43:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (none / 0)

Today, do you consider them useful case studies?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 04:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (4.00 / 3)

Is it just me or the (current) optimism of EuroTrib members about Yurp is proportional to the credit rating of their home nations?

by cagatacos on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 08:51:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (4.00 / 2)

Also possibly to their age.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (none / 0)

It's certainly not proportional to my personal credit rating. :)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:04:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (none / 1)

In my case, i didn't give a thought as to various credit ratings. Nor to all the delusional religious psychopathy about economics.

i was pontificating from my tunnel vision watching Germany, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands and Spain (and soon Finland) selling their wind turbines and technology around the world, including into the US, UK and the BRICs. I think about Spanish and German solar plant the same way, although there California has given the US a base of its own.

Then i was thinking of the growth in organic produce in parts of Europe. And a general attitude regarding sustainability.

More likely my view is based upon grandiose doses of wishful thinking, which i spend most every day trying to make good.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 11:11:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yurp (none / 1)

You see optimism somewhere?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 04:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

Why don't you flesh this - minus the Migeru reference - out into a diary?

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:01:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "... But the Currency is Good" (none / 0)

ARGeezer:

It is starting to look like the choice is between the EU and the Euro on the one hand or the banks and their un-payable debts on the other.
Looks to me like we are eleven years late on a millennial Jubilee.

there has to be a solid reason for the darn thing to have been invented, evolved as necessary...

the forces that conspired to make jubilees emerge as vital for continuance of the then present financial systems are probably the same as dictate its usefulness today.

one wonders what level of social turmoil was need back then, of course the numbers ~and populations~ are hugely augmented, but it appears to be a principle that no financial system has been able to eschew for too long.

anyone know any history around this stuff? were there riots or somesuch before the old cabals realised they had to let go of some idea of (casino) profits if no-one but they held all the chips!

i'll bet they didn't get there without some intense struggle, same as we see today from the banksters trying to make us believe that stacking bets 600 trillion high ain't good for the bottom line...

down with fractional reserves! maybe compound interest too, and maybe that would obviate the need for jubilees.

they must have been great celebrations, when they happened, great scenes of.... jubilation

...which we could all use a dose of too :)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 07:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The End of the European Dream | 276 comments (274 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)

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