The End of the European Dream | 276 comments (274 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: This sounds like bullshit (none / 1)

Are we supposed to compare by eye the area of the blue wedge with the area of the circles?

How to lie with statistical graphs...

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 02:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (none / 0)

Do you dispute the numbers?

Another way of looking at those numbers is by population, roughly:

Greece: 11 mil (28 bil)
Portugal: 11 mil (28 bil)
Ireland 4 mil (114 bil)
Spain: 46 mil (146 bil)
Germany: 81 mil (79 bil)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 03:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (4.00 / 2)

I dispute the graphical presentation of the numbers.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 05:13:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 3)

...is in the eye of the bondholder

I agree that the size/area of the circles does not conform to the figures contained within, and thus has only a semiotic or perceived value.

If you really want to object though, the main point of the graphic is that the four yellow countries are rolling downhill, with the 'stable' slope as Germany. OR, alternatively, the greater 'weight' of Ireland and Spain are tilting the horizontal axis. However the first explanation seems more likely, as the numbers within the circles are slightly rotated to indicate rotation/rolling.

If this graphic comes from a newspaper, it is very likely to have been created by a sullen youth of indeterminate gender in Converse boots and a possible piercing, on the basis of a hurried email instruction by a sub-ed.

Scientists, as you well know, are barred from all publishers.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 08:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 2)

If this graphic comes from a newspaper

It says "Der Spiegel" on the right, in white on a yellow background (though I doubt they were actually trying to hide this). I suspect that the areas do actually conform to the figures, but they sure don't look at first as though they do.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 08:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (none / 1)

Well, I measured the areas of the circles and they don't!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (none / 0)

If you say so.... I estimated by eye that Spain had slightly more than twice the diameter of Greece and figured that it wasn't really worth more careful examination....

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:49:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 3)

If you really want to object though, the main point of the graphic is that the four yellow countries are rolling downhill, with the 'stable' slope as Germany. OR, alternatively, the greater 'weight' of Ireland and Spain are tilting the horizontal axis. However the first explanation seems more likely, as the numbers within the circles are slightly rotated to indicate rotation/rolling.

Precisely. This is narrative-pushing, using the numbers as a poor excuse.

Maybe there's a third interpretation, a sort of domino effect/snowballing down the German deficit slope.

Whichever way you interpret it, the visual presentation has precious little to do with the data.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 2)

My point was purely to highlight the immense amount owed to German banks. The rest of it is something I don't have an opinion about.

plus 100B to UK banks just for Ireland and we start to get an outline of cui bono.

by rootless2 on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:32:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 3)

It is clear that this whole "rescue" mess is simply a way to transfer the losses to the public sector.

Under a default scenario the creditor countries still have to pick up the losses of their banks, so this is just a different way of achieving the same effect, just delayed so well-connected people have time to liquidate their positions...

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:35:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 5)

And to hide the rescue from their publics.

Remember, the original sin here is depressing German wages in the name of competitiveness. Telling the German people that they have to bail out the German banks because they lent the money that should have been paid to them to cowboy banks is unlikely to do anyone's political career any good. I'm guessing German workers would have been much happier if it was them rather than Irish bankers who were buying the Mercedes.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:39:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 4)

Right - the German government can now tell the gullible German public that the trouble is the reckless spending of Irish and Greeks, not the need to bail out a failed German banking industry.

by rootless2 on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (4.00 / 3)

Take it from the German SPD: it's all been "crass keynesianism"...

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 11:36:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (none / 1)

Do those numbers include money owed to German and UK banks by their subsidiaries operating from Ireland?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 09:41:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perception... is in the eye of the bondholder (none / 1)

i dunno - does it make a difference?

by rootless2 on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 10:45:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (none / 1)

Thou shall not use pie charts (or any other representation using area).

by asdf on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 08:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (none / 0)

Graphics, like statistics are important tools for conveying messages and can also be misleading. Critiquing their use can be an important part of appraising the validity of an argument.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 05:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Except histograms (n/t) (none / 1)

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 09:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (none / 1)

And they're comparing a stock (debt outstanding) with a flow (GDP).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 06:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (none / 0)

The ratio is the interest rate at which you'd spend your entire GDP servicing debt.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 06:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (4.00 / 2)

The figure is budget deficit, not GDP.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 06:31:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ooops, mea culpa (n/t) (none / 0)

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 06:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds like bullshit (4.00 / 2)

Doesn't matter. The claim made is that Germany/UK were happy to toss away many billions, that an Irish government that signed up to pay suddenly took a different path and that a US official with no apparent motivation except character defect prevented them from doing the right thing. Generally, I find it a good practice to be skeptical of self-serving rumors coming from such meetings.

by rootless2 on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 06:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The End of the European Dream | 276 comments (274 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)

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