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Rediscovering Minsky's wheel, one pundit at a time | 77 comments (77 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: But isn't that (none / 0)
There is no good real-world reason why we don't already have a culture that uses renewables for energy. Absolutely none.

Well, no, but what does that have to do with banks?

I can name the politician who killed US wind dead. I can name the politicians who killed the Danish offshore sector. They didn't need any help to do that.

Wind is crucially dependent on market structure. And the banksters don't decide that - the politicians do. Now, it may be that those politicians have been bought and paid for by the banksters, which means that you need to stop the banksters from buying politicians.

They already have. Not in Europe - but have you seen the state of Africa recently?

I am perfectly aware that there is a civil war in Libya. But I don't see how the banksters have much of anything to do with that.

What risk do you mean, exactly? What physical bad consequences result if a bank backs a "risky" project that is deemed to be a failure by current accounting standards?

People lose their homes.

People lose their incomes, which in our current institutional framework means that they will have to rely on charity and hand-outs to get food.

You get gas-fired power plants used for baseload, because of a failure to price in the systemic cost associated with increased gas reliance, and the systemic risk of monocropping your source of electricity.

When you can prove to me that the physical and social consequences of a failed "risky" enterprise are reliably worse and more damaging than the (largely imaginary) economic consequences, then I will believe that banks have a useful role to play.

But... you have more risky enterprises with banks than without. So that's an ass-backwards sort of demand to make.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 14th, 2011 at 04:29:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: But isn't that (none / 1)
Well, no, but what does that have to do with banks?

If banks were capable of intelligent reality-based strategic management, they would have been fighting the other corner, surely?

I am perfectly aware that there is a civil war in Libya. But I don't see how the banksters have much of anything to do with that.

In that case you might want to become more perfectly aware of the rest of Africa too.

People lose their homes. [...]

Er - you do realise that the only reason all of your examples have been happening for the last few years is because of the state of the banking industry?

I was looking for examples of what happens when banks aren't in the way. You provided a list of failures that have been created by banking.

This is rather odd, and worrying.

To repeat - I am talking about social transactions which are not financialised, and not primarily for profit or the generation of the abstract feudal debt management system known as "interest."

It might be useful at this point to think about what that might involve.

But... you have more risky enterprises with banks than without.

No, you don't. This is exactly the point of the argument. You have more risk and instability when banks are pretending to manage the economy - because in reality, the banks have very little interest in decreasing risk, and they can make more short-term profit when risk increases.

Banks can deny certain kinds of business models if they happen not to suit them - but the proper definition of "suit" is not "too risky", it is "not obviously profitable enough."

But these rules are only for the little people, not for the banks themselves. If risk explodes - as it always seems to - the stranglehold the banks have on government means they can always steal public cash.

The whole financial industry is predicated on the (accurate) assumption that it is possible to profit hugely from risk.

This is not a good basis on which to expect much useful risk limitation to happen - as reality bears out, repeatedly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat May 14th, 2011 at 11:57:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: But isn't that (none / 0)
In that case you might want to become more perfectly aware of the rest of Africa too.

Unless you believe Africa begins somewhere north of Greece, I don't see where you're coming from here.

I was looking for examples of what happens when banks aren't in the way. You provided a list of failures that have been created by banking.

Well when banks are not in the way, you don't get electricity in the first place. Nevermind gas-fired baseload.

Yes, the government can take over the strategic planning role currently fulfilled by the banks. The government can also monitor the banks to make sure they do their job. You have not provided any argument for why one of these solutions is universally superior to the other.

To repeat - I am talking about social transactions which are not financialised, and not primarily for profit

Since most European economies have been money-based since before they were industrialised, you may have a hard time finding any significant volume of industrial production that has ever taken place outside the monetary system.

You have more risk and instability when banks are pretending to manage the economy

A moment ago you were arguing that risk really wasn't so bad, so we didn't want to prevent it.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 14th, 2011 at 03:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rediscovering Minsky's wheel, one pundit at a time | 77 comments (77 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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