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A second TGV line to Lyon | 14 comments (14 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (4.00 / 2)
I think the Lot département would have little influence on the route anyway - its participation would have been in the name of the general benefit to the region (it is one of the départements of Midi-Pyrénées).

The third public consultation on the route started recently, as you say. There are a number of points of local friction - north of Toulouse, for instance, or at Agen. The kind of problem that usually ends up getting fixed.

But the PPP financing with Vinci comes in for more and more criticism. Vinci is pushing the envelope up to €8bn, more than the Tours-Bordeaux section. At the same time, the State claims not to have the means to finance directly.

From the (April) newsletter of the Europe Ecologie-Les Verts representatives on the Midi-Pyrénées regional council:

Voici des mois que les élu-es régionaux Europe Ecologie Les Verts défendent la liaison Paris-Bordeaux-Toulouse en TGV par le réaménagement des lignes existantes, notamment parce que le financement du projet en partenariat public privé apparaissait complètement irréaliste. L'actualité de la semaine vient conforter la position des écologistes : le TGV n'arrivera jamais à Toulouse si les différentes parties prenantes s'obstinent à croire qu'il est possible de réaliser un projet alors que de plus en plus de collectivités se désengagent, que RFF tire le signal d'alarme, que Vinci réclame à RFF 60 millions d'euros supplémentaires faisant ainsi exploser la facture au delà des 8 milliards d'euros...

For months now the regional representatives of EE-les Verts have been supporting the Paris-Bordeaux-Toulouse TGV connection by conversion of the existing lines, notably because the project finance by PPP seems completely unrealistic. This week's news [the Lot pulling out] backs up the ecologists' position: the TGV will never reach Toulouse if the different stakeholders obstinately go on believing it is possible to complete a project while more and more local authorities pull out, while RFF sends alarm signals [about financing], and Vinci demands €60mn more from RFF, pumping up the bill to over €8bn...

EE-les Verts argue their position in favour of a cheaper project (at 220 kph), in this pdf (in French).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 09:51:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (4.00 / 2)
BTW, the ticket policy that ensured the popularity of the first TGVs is dead and buried: with PPP financing, the private interest will be pushing TGV prices 30% above those of ordinary trains for the same trip.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 09:59:15 AM EST
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Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (4.00 / 2)
To be fair, they quote SNCF boss Pepy arguing for the necessity of elevated ticket prices on the basis of TGV Est, too (which was still built as a government project).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 10:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (none / 1)
Vinci is pushing the envelope up to €8bn, more than the Tours-Bordeaux section.

Hm? What does Vinci have to do with the price of a contract nowhere near even PPP tendering? Isn't Vinci pushing up its contract price for Tours-Bordeaux to €8 billion? In the linked document, EE-les Verts put the "extra" price tag of Bordeaux-Toulouse at €2 billion, RFF the full price at €2.8-2.9 billion.

EE-les Verts seems to argue for 220 km/h in general, though their travel time comparison is for Paris-Toulouse with Tours-Bordeaux built as planned. They sadly make the argument by not considering capacity, and give bad examples to follow (Germany: before they think a half-measures high-speed system is good, first compare ridership; Austria, Switzerland: compare domestic travel distances; USA: long-distance rail transport role model, really?). And it appears they seem to see the financing and ticket pricing models they criticise as inevitable rather than the problem.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 10:27:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (none / 0)
Yep, misreading on my part, it's the Tours-Bordeaux section Vinci was pushing on, and the state had to come up with €100mn to close it.

I suspect there is a lot of infighting as usual in les Verts over this (I know for a fact a good many Verts are opposed to the TGV, full stop.) So the resulting policy support is for a compromise, let's back 220kph...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 11:11:45 AM EST
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Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (none / 0)
They should also take a look at this and its (hard to link) Eurostat source. Which two French relations were among the top four busiest intra-EU air routes in 2008 (far above anything else in France)? Paris/Orly to Toulouse resp. Nice. Incidentally (not), the two major cities with the weakest TGV connections. (In fact, from the data I could find at Eurostat, in 2009 and 2010, the two French relations were the second and third busiest EU air routes, behind Madrid-Barcelona at a reduced level, while Milan Linate to Rome Fiumicino dropped out of the race due to the Milan-Bologna high-speed line.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 12:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (none / 1)
Similarly, flights between Roissy CDG and Brussels Zaventem have been completely eliminated after the Thalys ramp-up.
by Bernard (bernard) on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 12:56:03 PM EST
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Re: Bordeaux-Toulouse (4.00 / 2)
Sure. The fact of the busy Paris link has been adduced as evidence Toulouse needs a new international (!) airport. Toulouse being French Airspace City, a not uninfluential local lobby denies the usefulness of a TGV link with Paris. And still there are Greens who don't want the TGV... <sigh>
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 4th, 2011 at 01:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A second TGV line to Lyon | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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