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Said with much more grace than I was going to comment

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 02:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, thanks, Ceebs.  I had to fight this problem with juries SO often.  People tend to think that criminals are "masterminds" like the anti-hero in Die Hard, and you have to explain to them that lots of criminals really are stupid and incompetent, and that just because you think "no one could be that stupid" doesn't mean you should find someone "not guilty." On TV, sure, but not in real life.

"Crazy in the eyes" can be REALLY subtle, in my experience.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 03:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well this one is not simply criminal...he is a mass murderer. I make a difference.
Long ago I have heard a friend psychiatrist saying: I don't need much to tell if they are crazy..."I just have to look at their eyes" (or something like that). After that I tend to look people at the eyes more often and I (not being professional) learned to recognise not exactly madness but certainly to recognise when people around me have some psychological issues. Maybe professionals here may tell us more...
Well maybe these photos of this mass murderer were made prior to him going totally crazy.
And yes to kill 92 people one has to be totally crazy in my eyes...not simply stupid. Even solders can rarely kill masses and they are trained to kill. This does not make them necessarily mentally healthy and we can see that lot of them have mental problems after they come back home from war.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Jul 24th, 2011 at 06:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, no...I never said he was stupid rather than crazy, and I referred to "crazy IN the eyes" - not "crazy in YOUR eyes."  He's crazy in my eyes, too, but I also think he's crazy IN the eyes; we just differ there. I see a horrible coldness in his eyes.

I think it has already been established that he was quite intelligent.  But I still wonder what BEHAVIOUR you have seen on the part of those who you thought to be "crazy in the eyes" has confirmed for you that you were right about them being crazy.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 03:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said I am not professional and it is hard for me to explain "what" I see in the eyes of people that I met and in the end it was proven that they had some mental issues. But there is something and professionals obviously know to recognize it even without naming it for us amateurs.
Yes I see "horrible coldness" in his eyes but for me it's not sign of madness. There are types of people with that "cold eyes"...and preatty normal...
These are words that come to mind when I am talking about what I see in people with mental issues:  permanent and without specific reason  intense panic, terror, anxiety ... so it's kind of obvious that he is lost, absent,  fragmented person , in teriffic psychological pain , that just lost it...
That is for lack of better words...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 05:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What kind of mental illnesses have you seen signs of? Were there any who went on an amok run?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 07:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a good point. Mass murdering psychopaths make up a tiny percentage of the mentally ill. Most mentally ill people aren't much of a danger to anyone - even themselves.

I - quite seriously - believe that established psychopaths in positions of power are far more dangerous than shooting spree crazies.

Unfortunately only the latter create outraged and horrified headlines. The former are considered serious and leaderly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 08:46:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"I - quite seriously - believe that established psychopaths in positions of power are far more dangerous than shooting spree crazies."

(Sorry, don't know how to do the quote thing yet, and about to go to bed)

I totally have to agree. As a prosecutor, it made me CRAZY that someone who robbed a convenience store with a gun could end up in prison for life (one or two victims, most likely, in person) whereas a person who cheats THOUSANDS, MILLIONS, out of their pensions, retirements, whatever, goes to a federal country club prison for a few years.

I know this doesn't directly address the quotation, but it's in the same vein.

'tis strange I should be old and neither wise nor valiant. From "The Maid's Tragedy" by Beaumont & Fletcher

by Wife of Bath (kareninaustin at g mail dot com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 03:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quotes are [blockquote]Quoted text here[/blockquote], with the sharp brackets replaced by "<" and ">".

Oh, and the inverse relationship between the seriousness of the crime and the seriousness of the punishment goes even further: Add a few zeros to Madoff's scam and he would have been a pillar of society who needed a bailout.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 06:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course not.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you don't have experience to tell whether the madness is visible in this killer's eyes, then.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 02:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not. As I said I am not a professional and this I have heard from a professional who had about 20 years of experience at the time...
Yesterday on TV there was a Norwegian psychologist telling us that this man is a RARE kind of a mentally sick man that managed to hide his sickness.
You know the saying: Eyes are windows of a soul...Some people are able to lurk trough these windows...I try...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find the "Eyes are the windows of the soul" idea  ludicrous. and the idea that he is the rare type of mentally sick person who can hide their sickness almost insulting in its lack of thought.

The major problem that people with mental illnesses face (Apart from the illnesses themselves) is that they are not instantly visible on the outside. people who dont have them are constantly faced by people saying "But theres nothing wrong with you".

Would that there was a simple thing visible on the inside of the eyes, but no it's rubbish.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's your right to believe and think what you want...
Regardless of mentally ill people I do believe and think that with perfectly healthy people their eyes can tell a lot about their character etc. Face and expressions are also revealing...
Maybe one have to live long enough and to be interested in people to realise that eyes are "windows of the soul". When one looks at his own photos when young it is usually easy to recognise "innocence" comparing with photos later in life. Our face is not blank page...People made science out of this issue...apart from medicine, criminology those results are used very widely...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 12:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
People made science out of this issue...apart from medicine, criminology those results are used very widely...

If you're claiming your view is science-based, you should at least give some references.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe this discussion has gone wrong way and I'll stop here. It is not even relevant in this case.
Whoever is interested can investigate more by searching internet or talk to professionals.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
its no more correct than Phrenology

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 26th, 2011 at 01:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but that cold hardness Is crazy, though it may be indeed 'rational'.

it just hasn't acted out yet.

and yes, it is becoming 'normal' to have no affect or capacity for affection, given or taken.

indeed these are rewarded 'values' by a sociopathic society, led by models of the genre.

increasingly 'leaders' are foisted upon the gullible lectorate, selected for their highly skilful capacity to lie...

think about it, every time you see a commercial on tv, what is it but someone lying for money?

how many million ads do we see growing up?

lies are the water in which we have learned to swim. truthful people are admired for their candour, but avoided for their abrasiveness...

easier to go with the flow, learn to lie better, bigger. cf dave from marketing! in the great bliar tradition, he...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 08:25:33 AM EST
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Yes things that are normal today simply sadden me...
Not that we were perfect but back then when our behaviour wasn't appropriate, family, friends / society would intervene telling us that we shouldn't be for example selfish , hurtful , cold etc. towards others. But now ...maybe they still talk like that but you teach children by example...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Jul 25th, 2011 at 09:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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