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Wine or beer? | 21 comments (21 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Wine or beer? (4.00 / 4)
Limited natural resources are surely part of the current crisis paradigm (which was not apparent in the '30s Depression, for example). But for us, what matters is how to face those limits in the most equitable fashion possible. Not that the people-who-matter want to listen to whatever we could say about that.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 12:59:06 PM EST
Re: Wine or beer? (4.00 / 3)
The cost of the natural resources required to make a product is dwarfed by the labor costs.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 01:18:03 PM EST
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Re: Wine or beer? (4.00 / 4)
The transport (by plane) of fresh orange juice on a daily basis seems to me a unsustainable luxury.

Labour costs only seem expensive with cheap energy and plenty existing resources (metal, land, water).

I would imagine that having 3.5 billion cars (1 for every 2 people) as you have in some Western countries is impossible simply due to resource constraints. Not labour.

by cagatacos on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 02:37:19 PM EST
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Re: Wine or beer? (none / 0)
ATinNM:
The cost of the natural resources required to make a product is dwarfed by the labor costs.  

boy is that ever reversing fast...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Wine or beer? (none / 1)
I do not disagree on the politics at all.

My point is that some down-sizing is mandatory. The current way is a way. You do not like it, I do not like it, but it is a way to lower resource consumption.

Any long term solution will require more (material) poverty for the Western world middle classes. Either that or we nuke out of existence the Southern hemisphere :(

by cagatacos on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 02:40:47 PM EST
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Re: Wine or beer? (4.00 / 7)
I have the hope enough people will get it through their heads buying a shirt, say, that actually fits is better then buying 5 shirts of "one size fits nobody."  Buying a washing machine that will last the rest of one's life rather than buying 5 is the better way to go.  Eating nutritious foods are better than cheap crap that is only going to end up costing you more in doctor's bills in the last third of your life.

And so on and so forth.

Viewed in this way there's a gain in material well-being.

I concede most people think "he who dies with the most worthless junk piled-up in the largest heap ... Wins!"  For them moving to a sustainable global system will be "material poverty."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:06:59 PM EST
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Re: Wine or beer? (4.00 / 8)
This is mostly a narrative problem. Unfortunately your narrative is in minority.

As I see it there are 2 possibilities: people shift towards your narrative (or similar ones) OR there will be massive unhappiness, resentment, bickering and suffering.

Is is obviously possible to be very happy with much less. We did that as a species since... ever. It is just that people do not see it that way.

by cagatacos on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 03:14:09 PM EST
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Re: Wine or beer? (none / 0)
cagatacos:

As I see it there are 2 possibilities: people shift towards your narrative (or similar ones) OR there will be massive unhappiness, resentment, bickering and suffering.

totally agree... this is where cluing in early can help one psychologically prepare, both to take the first of your suggestions, and try to influence those who are left jonesing from the latter.

the people without power on the E coast will be getting to know their neighbours in ways they probably never would have otherwise, in a good way hopefully, as they wait around for their power to return. not much else to do than help your fellow stricken.

cagatacos:

It is obviously possible to be very happy with much less.

yes it may be only possible to be very happy with much less!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:21:09 AM EST
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Re: Wine or beer? (4.00 / 5)
The greatest scourge of individualism is in creating a disconnect between the effect of one person's actions and the effect of a million people doing the same actions.  

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 12th, 2011 at 04:41:42 PM EST
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Wine or beer? | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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