Why Feedin Tariffs are the wrong subsidy | 74 comments (74 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Thomas:

they amounted to politicians dictating technology choice. Badly. A lot of what has been built was, and will forever be, complete lunacy. Rooftop solar in northern europe is never, ever, going to make sense.

Even rooftop solar PV makes sense, if you factor in the growth of manufacturing and supply chain dynamics coming from a standing start of zero. (This is the function of variable tariff rates.) Of course rooftop PV manufacture and installation in Greece will be one of the pillars of their recovery, with far higher efficiencies than in Hamburg.

Passive solar rooftop water heating, even in Bremen, is always in play. And if you must use the word lunacy, use it where it best applies, to a civilization which hides true cost.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:24:32 AM EST

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 4)

Of course rooftop PV manufacture and installation in Greece will be one of the pillars of their recovery, with far higher efficiencies than in Hamburg.

No it won't. Austerian policies imposed by Frankfurt are destroying the Greek economy, preventing the European Investment Bank from funding projects in Greece, encouraging a capital and deposit flight out of Greece, and so on and so on. Network effects will ensure that it will be more profitable to build the manufacturing facilities in other countries that haven't had their industrial fabric destroyed by 5 or maybe 10 years of depression, and installation will likely be done by foreign conglomerates who will take any profit out of Greece, as well as sold to the locals on credit given by foreign institutions who will siphon off the interest, too. Plus a foreign firm is likely to own the Greek grid when this is said and done.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 3)

that may be the neo-con plan, but we really don't know the end game yet (at least that's my view). If there's any chance of the glass being half-full, the people of Greece might still have something to say about the course of action.

Of course, the Shock Doctrine might also work, in which case we're all fucked.

Would the foreign firm owning the Greek grid defend their offices with NATO forces if the Greeks decided they wanted it back? Or if the Parliament decided to nullify the deal?

What's important to remember is the potential that PV and wind can play in Greece, if it's done sustainably and not by E.on's masters.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 3)

That's not the neocon plan. The serious people appear to honestly believe in expansionary austerity, except for the few Austrian liquidationists that may be around.

In addition, even if Greece does produce and install PV and wind, it will still heavily depend on liquid fuels for transportation (who's going to pay for the infrastructure necessary to switch to electric traction, and we're talking about very rugged terrain) for a long time so at most it will be exporting power and importing or manufacturing synthetic fuels. And it will import the electric vehicles, too.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:42:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 3)

Terminology is more accurate sure, but still Shock Doctrine behind the 1% wall.

I come from the school of "where there's a will, there's a way." Rugged terrain or not.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 05:23:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (none / 1)

The serious people appear to honestly believe in expansionary austerity, except for the few Austrian liquidationists that may be around.

Has that old canard actually seen use outside the UK? On the continent I only hear TINA without even the pretence of there being a coherent story.

by generic on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 01:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 2)

I believe the ECB's story is that austerity build confidence which then leads to economic recovery. So in Europe it's just the confidence fairy story.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 03:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (none / 0)

Would the foreign firm owning the Greek grid defend their offices with NATO forces if the Greeks decided they wanted it back? Or if the Parliament decided to nullify the deal?

Greece is held hostage by the wish to be "part of Europe", which is rooted in the experience of being under the Colonels around 1970.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:50:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 2)

Greece is held hostage by the wish to be "part of Europe", which is rooted in the experience of being under the Colonels around 1970.

Ha! Isn't this the exact same story as Spain and Portugal?

The rapid adoption of a European identity allowed the countries to shed the appearance of authoritarianism almost overnight.

What does is mean if Europe wasn't a destination for these countries, but instead only an escape?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Jan 8th, 2012 at 08:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (none / 1)

Isn't this the exact same story as Spain and Portugal?

That's my assumption. Countries which are not self-conscious about their European credentials tend to make their own policy proposals rather than rolling over when Germany or France say so.

It's not homegrown authoritarianism I'm worried about, but the one being imposed from that very not-selfconscious European core.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 9th, 2012 at 04:23:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 2)

Would the foreign firm owning the Greek grid defend their offices with NATO forces if the Greeks decided they wanted it back?

Yes.

This has been another edition of "simple answers to simple questions."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 08:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 2)

But in the long, long term cheap energy from solar is the kind of factor that can reverse the pressure gradient of migration flows. (To continue from my diary...)

The long term cost base of (for example) Bavaria just isn't good. The winters and the cost of local energy production are a problem.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy? (4.00 / 2)

In the long run we're all dead, and the short run is largely a political choice.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 04:56:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Feedin Tariffs are the wrong subsidy | 74 comments (74 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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