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Thomas:
implies a serious problem getting the total wind penetration above.. 30 odd percent?

It means that incorporating up to about 30% is pretty straightforward, and would involve minimum curtailment; and that additional measures need to be taken for penetration above 30% (penetration here being mean wind generation divided by mean demand, on a multi-year basis).   As long as within-country transmission capacity is built to suit the 21st century rather than the 1960s-1990s.

and (looking down...) Thomas again:

So large variations in daily supply either require storage that can hold weeks of electricity,

Which we've already got in Europe. Of the order of hundreds of TWh of storage hydro.

and (looking further down...) mustakissa wrote:

Seems to me that the problem is not so much in getting wind penetration above 30 percent, as in what to do with the over-production that will become increasingly more common then.

It's a brand new ecological niche in the market, where wholesale prices are zero or lower for periods. It will therefore take a bit of time for innovation to fill those niches. And it will: see, for example, the Danish district-heating providers buying big resistance heaters to run at such times. And Highview's cryo-storage, Audi's synthetic methane production, and so on ...

by LondonAnalytics (Andrew Smith) on Tue Oct 23rd, 2012 at 11:23:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

for example, the Danish district-heating providers buying big resistance heaters to run at such times

Tut-tut, how wasteful. Haven't they heard of heat pumps?

District heating/cooling by heat pumps

by mustakissa on Wed Oct 24th, 2012 at 02:22:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by mustakissa on Wed Oct 24th, 2012 at 02:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it is wasteful depends on the need to handle spillage and the capacity to store the heat. If they for some reason can't store more then they get from resistance heaters and the need to handle spillage is great, well then resistance heaters makes sense as combined heat/waste mechanism.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 24th, 2012 at 03:50:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course they've heard of heat pumps. And in many cases a heat pump is entirely the wrong solution.

The much under-rated resistance heater has many attributes that make it ideal for this purpose.

They can be turned on and off quickly.
They're very cheap. So when they're used for hundreds of hours a year, rather than thousands, their cost per kWh is much much lower than heat pumps.
They're very reliable, and need minimal servicing.

So, a heat pump would be terribly wasteful in this situation, of being a backup to the main boiler, to be used in emergencies or at times of very very low electricity costs; and a resistance heater is perfect.

by LondonAnalytics (Andrew Smith) on Wed Oct 24th, 2012 at 08:06:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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