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An astounding version of democratic responsibility. The ordinary, lower-income, least powerful citizens are entirely to blame for the corrupt wealthier classes and for the successive governments of different parties - and their guilt is such that they should be punished.

But if it makes it easier for you to feel self-righteous, I guess it must be worth it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2012 at 04:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this isn't about punishment.

Nobody is 'punished' here, any more than you are 'punished' when you get wet after walking in the rain.
Dont want to gert wet? Don't walk in the rain...

Actions have consequences.

by cris0 on Tue Feb 14th, 2012 at 04:32:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
cris0:
Actions have consequences.

This, Germany will certainly learn in the next few years.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2012 at 04:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, lending to an insolvent means you lose your money.

Except apparently not in this case.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2012 at 04:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Weather is not politics.

Politics is a human construction. The rules can be changed at any moment. (And often are, to suit someone or other.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 14th, 2012 at 05:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
The ordinary, lower-income, least powerful citizens are entirely to blame for the corrupt wealthier classes and for the successive governments of different parties - and their guilt is such that they should be punished.

It is at least close to half the case that they so easily bought into the lies that brought them to their present condition, though credit must be given to the sociopathic 'social scientists' who helped them figure out how to appropriately frame these issues.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 12:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An astounding version of democratic responsibility. The ordinary, lower-income, least powerful citizens are entirely to blame for the corrupt wealthier classes and for the successive governments of different parties - and their guilt is such that they should be punished.

Nonsense, of course, but so's the opposite position: that voters who vote for those who court their dark sides have no responsibility for what they do.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 01:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This would be true if there wasn't an astounding unanimity of fuckwittery among pols, and if they didn't lie like pigs just to get into power - before conveniently throwing all their very important publicly-held principles into the bottom of the nearest cess pit.

If you can think of anyone in mainstream politics in the UK who actually represents the interests of the voting majority, instead of pretending to in a rather half-hearted way but very serious way, let me know who they are.

I promise to vote them for them next time around, if you can convince me it will make a useful difference.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 01:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's largely a closed loop: politicians run on the basis of what people will fall for and act on the basis of what they'll get away with.

Satisfy enough of enough people's dark side and you'll get away with a lot.

Run on the basis of people's good side and you tend to not get elected - so even originally well-meaning politicians don't and that's an awful slippery slope. Once you're inside the machine you end up being swallowed by it.

Labour tacked to the right partly because they decided it was the only way to get elected.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2012 at 01:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not getting away from the fact that the politicians who fucked Greece up before the crisis were elected by the Greek people.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Feb 16th, 2012 at 08:31:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but this is systemic and it cuts both ways, not only Greek politicians fucked up public finances, but politicians in the rest of the EU accepted Greece in the EZ knowing full well it didn't meet the standards, and the German and French governments had no problem exacerbating the situation via arms sales. And more importantly lenders lent at rates they shouldn't have lent at...

But this is neither here nor there: this type of democracy we supposedly have is in fact a mediated system in which the "viable" choices are selected for the people by a series of checks and mechanisms, in which cultural hegemony plays a big role. Not only Greece though. What you say is the same type of fallacy that Al Qaida has employed in the not so distant past: Americans elected Bush, Bush kills Arabs, Arabs have a right to kill all Americans as complicit in Bush's election in a free and fair (well...) way. It doesn't work that way.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Feb 16th, 2012 at 09:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the politicians who now create these bank bailouts for european tax payers (and turn national budjets into junk funds) are also elected by these countries.

What we after all should not forget is that neoliberalism is a religious movement. The poor are "sinners." They must be punished, when the elites f** up.

by kjr63 on Fri Feb 17th, 2012 at 09:05:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think that's neoliberalism, rather it's Calvinism/protestant work ethic kinda thingie.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Feb 17th, 2012 at 12:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think so. Neoliberals could care less about work. These are more like pagan rituals.
by kjr63 on Fri Feb 17th, 2012 at 01:07:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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